Insulating your shelter

[Grunt]

I just bought my retirement home a few months ago and it was built around 1830's. The house has 24" thick hand layed rock walls with stucco on them. I have been reading trying to find out what kind of insulating value the walls will have. The home is an old alsaca built place. We have very mild winters but hot summers (105 today). I plan on using solar and wind power which are plentiful here as are the city services but I do not have them connected.
So if anyone has experience with stone as an insulator I would appreciate your knowledge.

[Rick]

I'll let someone else help you with the insulation. Just make certain you have the house tested for radon. All stone (including granite counter tops) releases radon gas; a known radioactive carcinogen.

[crashdive123]

The stucco should help some. The stones are a huge thermal mass. They will heat up or cool slowly and transfer that (heat or cold) to the interior without either insulation (this is where the stucco should help). If the wall were "double walled", or left an air space in the wall, that air space is a good insulator as well.

[intothenew]

I have to do some research, but I have in the back of my mind less than an "R" per foot of thickness in a solid stone wall.

[finallyME]

My guess, remember it is a guess, is that it will be close to concrete.

[Rick]

I would think it would depend on the type of stone used and the porosity of the stone. The more dense the better the insulation. Rather than check for stone wouldn't you want to know the R factor for the type of stone?

[RangerXanatos]

I live in the granite capitol of the world and there are several granite houses around here. I hear that they are cold in winter and hot in summer. So I think they do a poor job of insulating.

[kyratshooter]

.355-.4 R value per inch.

No one here has discovered Google?

[crashdive123]

As I said in my previous post - the stone wall (if there is no air space) is a large thermal mass. Just like heating rocks to keep you sleeping area warm for the night, or cooling rocks to chill your food - they will retain the heat (or cold) that is influencing them.

[Rick]

Yes. I've used Google a time or two. Granite is .05 per inch and sandstone/limestone is .08 per inch. That's why I suggested knowing what kind of stone it it.

http://archtoolbox.com/materials-systems/thermal-moisture-protection/24-rvalues.html

[intothenew]

Here's ya another google grab.

Linky (http://www.marble-institute.com/stoneprofessionals/rvalue.cfm)

Most are less than 1 per foot.

[hunter63]

Here's ya another google grab.

Linky (http://www.marble-institute.com/stoneprofessionals/rvalue.cfm)

Most are less than 1 per foot.

I think you ment 1 per INCH......anyway.

Around here the energy company will come out an do an energy audit....for free, as part of their "webeenscrewingyaforsolongthatthegovmentisstartingt ocatchonsowearedoingstufflikethisasasmokescreen" program.

Many times the walls are very hard to add r'value to, not to good of a bang for the buck ratio.

Windows, doors attic, foundation etc are much better ratios.

You said retirement home.....so there may be retirement up grades depending on income.....at least there were a few programs up around here, where the electric/gas company would subtidize new window doors insulation as well as new equiptment.

[intothenew]

I think you ment 1 per INCH.....


Nope, 1 per foot.


The stated values in the table are per inch. So, for the first Granite listing it is .083 per inch. Multiply that times twelve to get per foot.

12 x .083 = .996 per foot

[hunter63]

Nope, 1 per foot.


The stated values in the table are per inch. So, for the first Granite listing it is .083 per inch. Multiply that times twelve to get per foot.

12 x .083 = .996 per foot
OK You are right and I'm wrong.......didn't look it up.

[Rick]

Forgot your guzintas didn't ya?

[Batch]

.355-.4 R value per inch.

No one here has discovered Google?


I googled Google and got Google...

[Grunt]

The walls are limestone and are about 24" thick. I would think with that much mass the sun would be down before the heat of the day could transfer to the interior. I guess I will find out this summer the temps are already 100+ in west Texas. I have to replace the roof and I believe I will try that spray foam on the under side to keep the attic space cool that should help.
Thanks for the info.

[Winter]

The stucco should help some. The stones are a huge thermal mass. They will heat up or cool slowly and transfer that (heat or cold) to the interior without either insulation (this is where the stucco should help). If the wall were "double walled", or left an air space in the wall, that air space is a good insulator as well.

This is true to my knowledge. I am a residential construction worker.

[Grunt]

This is true to my knowledge. I am a residential construction worker.

Have you worked with the expanding foam? I hear that's it is good stuff or how about the sip panels? I was thinking Of the panels for my new roof structure. This house is all original, i am not sure if I could have raised my family in it for its only 15X19 interior space but people seem to have been able to do with less 150 years ago when the house was built. I am not interested in (surviving) in this retirement home I just want to be more independent.
I think I can make do with just solar and wind power in a home with such a small foot print. My children were raised on our boat and we mother nature provided all our power needs for seven years.

[Grunt]

Winter by looking at your picture I assume you are also a grunt! If so where.

[Winter]

I've used expanding foam, but not SIP panels.

Instead of using the sip panels for the new roof, why not save money and use 1 1/2" foam sheets with 2x4" pearlings and an interlocking metal roof.

Grunt, I did LRS for AKNG.

[Daniel Nighteyes]

Forgot your guzintas didn't ya?

Gesundheit!

[Daniel Nighteyes]

Let's take a stroll back in time.

Beginning in the late 1970's rock (and concrete) walls were touted as effective heat-sinks. This means that, if they're exposed to the sun in daytime, they'll gather and absorb heat. At night they'll re-radiate the absorbed heat back into the structure. (Etc., etc.)

Therefore rock walls can be a blessing. a curse, or somewhere in between. It depends on how exposed they are to daytime heat sources (e.g. the sun) and how much heat you wish to be radiated back into the house at night. If they're properly positioned and used, they can be a blessing. Otherwise, they can be a curse.

Clear as mud, right?

Regards,

-- Nighteyes

[Renatus]

deleted....

[hunter63]

As the OP was referring to a retro fit, not a designed home from the get go.....retro fit techniques need to be the subject.

[crashdive123]

Good point H63. IMO insulating on the outside of the structure, while altering the appearance greatly, would diminish the heat/cold sink issues with the stone.

[Rick]

I assume you are going to insulate the attic as well? That and the crawl space, if you have one, will probably pay your greatest dividends considering the construction of the walls.

[JPGreco]

What are SIP panels? I've never really heard that term at least not as an abbreviation.

Is the stonework exposed on the interior of the house? If so, you can definitely spray foam the entire interior structure. However you would want to finish it would be up to you. As Rick said, overhead insulating will have a big impact as well. You can also stucko the exterior walls.

I guess the real question is what do you want? Do you want to keep aesthetics, maximize R value, or somewhere in between?

[hunter63]

SIP=Structural Insulated Panels.......a sandwich if you will of panel board of some sort filled with ridge foam insulation.
http://www.sips.org/about/what-are-sips/

Work very well in new buildings, but i thinking a real nightmare for retro fit.

JG is spot on, what do you what it to look like?

I'm dealing with and interesting dilemma at "The place".....roof desperately need some insulation of some sort, just roof rafters, lumber and roofing.

Problem is loft area is sleeping area with limited head room, so kinda depends on sticking your head between the rafters at times......
1)...so filling it in would reduce head room.
2) filling the 6" space would not allow for any circulation between insulating and wood roofing boards.

Possible solutions are:
1) a partially filled space, with wood tongue and groove cover for autistics,
2) re-roof with steel, with 1-1/2 foam panels underneath ...and a partically filled space.

Or make arrangements to spend winter months in the south and not worry about it too much.....
Jury still out.

[Beans]

I was involved with a factory made adobe type brick building (Houses) in Pahrump Nevada with 16 inch walls. IIRC the owners only had to heat the house once every three days in the winter and only ran the AC once every 3 days in the Nevada summer. This was after they had brought the temp up or down, depending on if it was summer or winter, to their desired temp.

this might help
http://www.buildinggreen.com/auth/article.cfm/1998/4/1/Thermal-Mass-and-R-value-Making-Sense-of-a-Confusing-Issue/

http://greenbuildingelements.com/2008/05/25/heating-your-home-thermal-mass/

http://www.concretethinker.com/solutions/Thermal-Mass.aspx

[your_comforting_company]

I'll let someone else help you with the insulation. Just make certain you have the house tested for radon. All stone (including granite counter tops) releases radon gas; a known radioactive carcinogen.

JEEZ, man! EVERYTHING is going to kill us!

[Rick]

Uh, yeah, eventually. Probably just one of them, though.

[old2531]

one thing i suggest before u do anything go down to the nearest historical society and find out if your new /old house is on the historical list if it is you cant make any external changes alot people find out the hard way their new/old home cant be even semi modernised