Primitive camping trip

[shepherd]

On a Primitive Camping Trip, what would be the characteristics of the endeavor? Would there be metal tools, matches, etc.?

[gryffynklm]

Primitive camping can be defined by the following:

The people taking the trip.

The lack of amenities no water, fire pit parking, no out house.

Perhaps if you tell us what you think Primitive camping is we can know were you are coming from. For me primitive camping looks like this. Is a term used to describe the appearance of the camp from a visitors view.

Fort Seybert Rendezvous.

http://www.wilderness-survival.net/forums/showthread.php?17270-Fort-Seybert-Rendezvous&highlight=fort+seybert

A more primitive view of camping or trimmed down to what you can pack in.
Historical Trekking
http://woodsrunnersdiary.blogspot.com/2010/03/18th-century-living-history-historical.html

[1stimestar]

Here's my primitive camping.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v40/1stimestar/cooking-1.jpg

[shepherd]

Primitive camping can be defined by the following:

The people taking the trip.

The lack of amenities no water, fire pit parking, no out house.

Perhaps if you tell us what you think Primitive camping is we can know were you are coming from. For me primitive camping looks like this. Is a term used to describe the appearance of the camp from a visitors view.

Fort Seybert Rendezvous.

http://www.wilderness-survival.net/forums/showthread.php?17270-Fort-Seybert-Rendezvous&highlight=fort+seybert

A more primitive view of camping or trimmed down to what you can pack in.
Historical Trekking
http://woodsrunnersdiary.blogspot.com/2010/03/18th-century-living-history-historical.html

I am coming from confusion and ignorance. Primitive is a very nebulous concept and has much to do with context. If someone says they are going "Primitive" camping, what are the parameters that describe it. Notice I did not say "Survival". I am just curious as to how to interpret "Primitive" in the context of camping out in the USA.

[Rick]

You have to take it in the context of the conversation. For example, Most federal and state parks describe primitive camping as a lack of amenities (#2 on Karl's list above) and that's pretty much how I see it. I take a pack and all the conveniences I want to carry but my camp is in the woods as opposed to a campground, shelter or cabin.

If you talk to Tresmon or YCC I'll bet they have a much more primitive view of "primitive". I don't think there is a single answer. It depends on the context of the conversation.

[Sarge47]

Notice I did not say "Survival". I am just curious as to how to interpret "Primitive" in the context of camping out in the USA.

1st, just let me say that you have my eternal gratitude for NOT using the term, "survival," in the wrong context. :thumbup:

2nd, the term "primitive" is a broad, general term, as you are now finding out. I would call what your are wanting to do either "minimalist camping," or even "extreme camping." I am siding with the rest on here though that you need to "err on the side of caution." Murphy's law is unforgiving and, as even the Boy Scouts know, "Be Prepared" is the best motto! Pack up everything you might need for a regular camping trip and take along a notebook for a journal. List all the things you absolutely HAD to have and then list what you did or can do without. Never forget the four basics: "Fire," "Shelter," "Water," and "Food." While I may not use matches on any outing that I go to, I always have some "strike anywhere" matches in a waterproof container stashed somewhere on my person. To assume that nothing is going to happen to you that might keep you from starting a fire with methods such as a bow drill, is just asking for trouble. You should also study up on learning how to start a fire after a big rain storm when all of the wood is soaked. That would be a good starting place! :cool2:

[shepherd]

Okay, let's define it more thoroughly. Let us confine the def as pertaining to Native Americans in Ga. When the term "primitive" is used, is there an assumed cutoff date for amenity availability. For instance cutoff at 1800 would preclude matches, but would include an iron axe. A date that is chosen will not be absolute, but should be representable.

[Rick]

You lost me. I have no idea what you are trying to achieve. The term primitive is sort of like the term cold. It's relative to its context. Cold in Florida is not cold in Alaska although it could be. I hope that makes sense.

[shepherd]

You lost me. I have no idea what you are trying to achieve. The term primitive is sort of like the term cold. It's relative to its context. Cold in Florida is not cold in Alaska although it could be. I hope that makes sense.

OK, try November in Ga. This is just getting a representable context to go to the next level. First the ground rules must be determined so that context can be understood and meaningful. What year in Ga. is representable for using the word "primitive" to describe the everyday life of native Americans?

[hunter63]

On a Primitive Camping Trip, what would be the characteristics of the endeavor? Would there be metal tools, matches, etc.?

That's actually the most legitimate question I seen in a long time......and your answers are gonna be personnel depending on who responds.

My definition would have to be......camping with out amenities, toilets, running water, showers, electric hook ups, WiFi.....

As a lot of my camping tends to be of the rendezvous, buck skinner type as gryff has pictured....or a hunting camp somewhere.....All assessable by vehicle....to tote gear.

So I would suppose you could limit your modern conveniences to "what you can carry".....really cuts a lot of stuff out real quick......back packing

Or "no modern materials", nylon, stainless steel, carbon fiber.....so as to increase weight........Old hunting camp.

Or really get nuts with "cave man style", that would be your no metal tools, matches, glass/ plastic containers........prepared foods.

And yeah, there area couple of people on this forum that are good at it.....and they don't call it surviving.....they call it primitive living....
It only becomes "surviving" when something goes really wrong.

Ever been on a road trip with a bunch of bikers, tents, sleeping bags, what ever their bikes would carry.....on a road trip.....sure they stop at 'ice cream stores" and gas stations along the way.....but camp it self is pretty primitive...
You will find people that will argue semantics no matter what you do.....so it really up to you....what ever floats your boat, as it were.

Wouldn't be nice is a lot more people just got out and enjoyed the big wide world, take what ever you like, or can carry with the knowlage.....You know I really don't Need all this stuff.

[Batch]

I believe most native americans in Ga in the 1800's were living in permenant settlements. They traded with white man and intermarried until a civil war of sorts over the matter and then the Seminole wars. These Creek nations then moved to Oklahoma or Florida. So they would have been very typical of most white settlements of that period. Their most famous leader was called Billy Powell and was more Scot-Irish and English than Creek. He was given the name most of us know him by during the Second Seminole War. A ceremony that involved a purifying by drink a tea made from yaupon holly called the black drink (Asi). It would make you throw up, there by purifying you for battle. Billy Powell could hold this black drink down longer than most and this brought out more impurity before shouted "barf" or what ever sound you make when you throw up. The word for shout or shouter in creek is yahola.

So he was called Asi-yahola or black tea shouter. We came to spell this as Osceola. But, he was still Billy Powell and he still grew up in what was at the time a modern civilization. During the war and the flight into the everglades they used what ever at that time modern amenities to survive. They probably started most of their fires with flint locks.

Once they could build a temporary camp they would usually find a source of fresh potable water and start to build more comfrotable shelters. Usually a Chickee hut. They made a fire by putting logs in the fire so that they met in the middle of the fire. As the fire burned the wood they would just walk around and slide the logs in with their foot. If the soldiers were coming they could quickly drag the logs out of the fire and the fire would go out. They would leave one of the logs a little further from the fire than the rest. This let the other Seminoles which way they went.
So while they may have been more primitive than the rest of the white settlers of that time. They sought to use every modern amenity that their condition allowed.

If you were to go to the Big Cypress Reservation you would notice that as you get near town the cypress gives way to live oaks signalling high ground. They picked one of the highest and most protected Oak Hammocks in the area. Surrounded by impenetrable swamp on all sides. And then once they could safely rest from the soldiers pursuit. Did what they could to make themselves as comfortable as possible. Farming and trading with white settlers in the process for sewing machines and other modern tools. The white settlers lived a similar life style. Gradually building comfortable homesteads and as modern as money or other means would allow.

Basically, only a few tribes on this planet turned away from the modern world. Most lived or live as modern as their circumstances allowed.

[JPGreco]

I would say that using the term primitive isn't accurate as well. Saying you want to "camp" like the "primitive" natives of Georgia isn't accurate. They were just living their lives. I almost hate to say it, but they were simply surviving in their time. You can't really define primitive as stated as it can apply to 100 years ago or 1000 years ago, each of which would have different anthropological attributes as well as geographical attributes. You say the native's of Georgia didn't have metal axe's yet steel has been around for several thousand years, so when exactly does primitive equate to not having steel? Then you get into concepts of copper or bronze and you have edged metal tools that have existed even longer. Then you get to stone. All of these items produce the same affect. So by what definition of a primitive edged tool will force you to use that tool instead of a modern equivalent? You're looking at 15000 years of homo-something history that involves tools similar to today's. Nobody really knows how long flint has been used to start fire, but it has been used for tools for thousands and thousands of years.

Primitive camping is nothing more than a buzz word to inaccurately describe camping without modern luxuries, however you define them.

[hunter63]

I do like the term "Primitive camping" to "Going surviving"

As far a attaching a 'cut off date" to technology....I ask the Amish guy that built my cabin, and he actually gave me a late 1700 date, (don't remember exactly what that was )....which I thought was kinda odd as they do "use' modern tech, just don't "own" it.
I think my comment at the time, was, "Should have pick 1957......Could have had 1957 Chevy's, AM radio, B/W TV.....Rock and Roll"

The label on DW Amish Sugar free jelly, show their web site go to ww. amish jelly, something or other...Make you say "What????"

As far a native Americans being "primitive"....That's only in the eyes of other cultures..........Not the same as me.

[shepherd]

OK. We are ready for take off.

Native Americans did not by necessity hunt only the land around their village. So if a hunting party left a Piedmont Georgia Village, November 20th, 1650 AD, where would they go, how long would they stay, who would they take with them, how many would go, what would be the hierarchy of command and what tools, implements, provisions, etc. would they take with them?

[hunter63]

So now we are getting down to it........You are talking Native American cultural history, not necessarily primitive camping.....correct?

Seems a visit to the local Tribal Historical archives or State Historical Society may be in order........Seems local and specific.?
Term paper?

[shepherd]

Nope, reinactment exercise.

[Rick]

This thread has more tangents that a California turnpike.

[hunter63]

16 Posts to get to the point?.....Awww man, come on......thats lame.
Good luck.

[shepherd]

Not lame. Ignorant! I did not know how to select the parameters. Thanks for helping.

[Rick]

Maybe if you just tell us what you are trying to do we could help. So far I have not figured it out. I'm not sure anyone else has either.

[JPGreco]

Rick, you are way wiser than I then. All I can figure is he wants to go play indians and doesn't know how to research properly.

[hunter63]

OK, I will ignore the "wet paint" sign on the door.....and add
http://www.georgiaencyclopedia.org/nge/Article.jsp?id=h-2126
Scrowl down to Native Americans

[shepherd]

Maybe if you just tell us what you are trying to do we could help. So far I have figured it out. I'm not sure anyone else has either.

There are lots of knowledgeable people on here, but the subjects discussed are many times really nebulous. I want to narrow the parameters in order to get a timeline fix on people living in the outdoors and understand the progression of amenities. Need one good benchmark and this will work.

[shepherd]

Yep, that is where I have lived for awhile. And yep, that is the history. I have read it all, but still do not know the answers to the simple questions put forth. I am curious, I would like to know and suspect there are people on this forum that know the answers. I have no intention to play Indian, I have done that plenty hunting rivers for several days at a time alone. It is a mental exercise for entertainment for all who care to participate. I suspect I am not alone in the difficulty of placing everyday advancements on a time line.

[Sourdough]

Nope, reinactment exercise.


Reinactment of what.......................??????

[shepherd]

Replay if you will of what a hunting trip of Indians in the Ga Piedmont would be like in 1600. For one thing there would be no guns. I have evidence these parties would have been up to 50 people, and that fire was used. Reinactment is probably the wrong word, but survival folks are accustomed to what it means. Only this time the reinactment is simply literary.

[JPGreco]

Reinactment of what.......................??????

Surviving!!!

[shepherd]

Not really surviving at all, more sustenance. This had to be a regular part of their lives with rules, traditions and tested methodology.

[Thaddius Bickerton]

Primitive is a somewhat vague term.

I can offer a few of my thoughts (when could I ever not bother to open up my mouth - keyboard- )

Each individual gets to define what is primitive for them.

For some it is not having running water and electricity.

for others not having flush toilets

For others not having toilet paper.

(Chose to use sanitation as an example.)

I consider primitive camping to begin at the point where I am not using typical camping tools.

For examples: When i use flint and steel instead of a match or bic lighter to start a fire I consider it using a primitive technique.

when I boil water from a stream after filtering it instead of using a pocket purifier I consider it primitive.

When I use something I made from found materials instead of bringing it with me I consider it primitive (i.e. A debris hut vs a nylon tent.

but for some it would be using nothing past a certain time period. For those who buckskin a lot, primitive might be going back to a stone age level of camping. (pre metal)

So the best I can tell you would be that instead of seeking a definition of primitive, why not look at what you would use and step back in time to using an earlier method, perhaps just a few at a time until you are comfortable with using nothing but a period of time correct collection of tools.

Sorry for no simple answer, but as I see it, learning stuff and then learning alternatives that are more simple and that you perhaps can make for yourself is a move towards knowing more so needing less.

Although I have heard that the more you know the less you have to carry, i prefer to say that the more you know the more options you have.

Thad.

[shepherd]

I carried this question to another forum using the parameters:

1600AD
Piedmont of Georgia
November
Hunting Party

and the info is interesting. The Spaniards had traversed this area and there was the possibility of limited iron tools, however there were no guns for the Indians. The hunting parties were of a substantial number, including all sexes and ages, some as large as 50 people. The same sites were used for years, and structures were redone yearly. The women did the work and the men hunted and fished. As it turned out it was like going to a seasonal job and most of the acoutrements from home were taken along. They gathered herbs, plants, fruits, nuts and items for medicine. They cured meat and transported these items to the main villages.

An interesting aside was that though Desoto carried large herds of hogs with him and gave stock to the Indians for breeding because they were so fond of them, I have found no evidence so far that Indians either raised or hunted hogs.

Bows, arrows, spears, blow guns, darts, snares, traps, stone age tools, bow drills, dogs only for packing or dragging gear and provisions, bark huts, cordage, blankets, clothing made from skins and plants, etc.

So far I have no reliable reports of exactly how they procured the large game, other than they flushed the game with circular fires. I am curious that having so many mouths to feed that they would hunt the game one animal at a time. They were very motivated to gather by any means a large amount of game. They could be gone for months at a time, returning home by February. These hunting trips were vital for their survival.

[Rick]

To what end does this endeavor mean to serve? Is it just an exercise in learning or is there a point to it?

[Sparky93]

This thread had me more confused than a cow on astro turf...

[shepherd]

It was and is an exercise to simply to enjoy learning about a specific activity placed in context with its environment from our past. It has been fun and enlightening to me, sorry if it wasted your time or was confusing. What would be even more enlightening would be how much different the result would be, were this exercise conducted in the year 1700.

[hunter63]

Yep, that is where I have lived for awhile. And yep, that is the history. I have read it all, but still do not know the answers to the simple questions put forth. I am curious, I would like to know and suspect there are people on this forum that know the answers. I have no intention to play Indian, I have done that plenty hunting rivers for several days at a time alone. It is a mental exercise for entertainment for all who care to participate. I suspect I am not alone in the difficulty of placing everyday advancements on a time line.

There ya have it........

[kyratshooter]

OK. We are ready for take off.

Native Americans did not by necessity hunt only the land around their village. So if a hunting party left a Piedmont Georgia Village, November 20th, 1650 AD, where would they go, how long would they stay, who would they take with them, how many would go, what would be the hierarchy of command and what tools, implements, provisions, etc. would they take with them?


Shepard, you are dealing with a highly specialized activity that not eveyone here understands or has done. Most here will not be able to discuss this throughtly because they can not grasp the need, of lack of the need to partake in such an exercise. Hunter understands and gryffyn due to their association with reenactors but we had to get past the time warp and seperation between modern primitive and historically primitive.

There is nothing wrong with that. I am not trying to put anyone down. I do not understand most of the computer talk they do here past point and click. We all have our specialties and this type camping/hiking is a world unto itself. The summer I spent on the Appilation Trail was spent using no technology or clothing not available in 1750. The only cheating I did was a Coleman Expidition stove due to the fact that my Moma didn't raise a complete fool.

I have a Masters Degree in Historic Reenactment and have done the time, place and culture you are speaking about. I have studied the material culture and anthropology of the area for several decades and would be happy to steer you to forums where this is the basic topic they discuss. Let me warn you that most of them are brutal in their demand for historic accuracy. This goes way past the myth of history and demands one know actual facts and sometimes research months to get the gear right for a single weekend trek.

I spent last weekend on one from Saturday morning till Sunday night. Nothing invented past 1780 was used.

The activity you speak of is called "Historical Treking".

http://www.coht.org/

There are a bunch of us out there.

PM me if you would like links to a couple of forums.

[gryffynklm]

Ok, now I have to find a cow, a field of astroturf and a video camera.

[kyratshooter]

Does the astroturf grow greener where the cow poops?

[gryffynklm]

Does the astroturf grow greener where the cow poops?

I'm not sure?? THere might be some grant money we could apply for.

I second Krats post at #35

Shepherd, You saw my rendezvous camp. That is easy liven and pseudo accurate because if you cant see what's in the tent the propane heater isn't there.

Beowulf65, haven't seen him about in some time but he offered a list of his trekking gear when I asked. He is quite knowledgeable in the history of trekking.
http://www.wilderness-survival.net/forums/group.php?discussionid=10&do=discuss

From Beowulf65's Blog: what is historical trekking
http://www.wilderness-survival.net/forums/entry.php?118-Historical-Trekking
http://www.wilderness-survival.net/forums/entry.php?118-Historical-Trekking

Here is a Facebook page Beo set up for trekkers https://www.facebook.com/groups/250461282727/

[Rick]

I'm pretty certain it turns browner.

[Sparky93]

I'm pretty certain it turns browner.

ROFLMAO!! :lol:

[your_comforting_company]

Primitive is a relative definition. The state parks definition is anything less than an RV being fair game.

My definition is very different.

[your_comforting_company]

OK. We are ready for take off.

Native Americans did not by necessity hunt only the land around their village. So if a hunting party left a Piedmont Georgia Village, November 20th, 1650 AD, where would they go, how long would they stay, who would they take with them, how many would go, what would be the hierarchy of command and what tools, implements, provisions, etc. would they take with them?

Bows, arrows, food, and women. The men killed the animals and the women did everything else.
I guess all you really need is the women, am I right Sourdough?