Rescue Searchers Argue that Lost Hikers Should Pay Rescue Costs

[GiLLiGaNN]

A New Hampshire Fish and Game (DFG) officer wants the hiker who “did everything wrong” to foot the bill for the rescue team that was dispatched on the lost hiker’s behalf. Department of Fish and Game Sgt. Wayne Saunders said a hiker from Sandwich, Massachusetts set out to hike Mount Madison late in the day on Monday with no food, no water, no hiking gear and no flashlight. He only had two t-shirts and a pair of knee-high rubber boots.

Mark Walsh, 49, only had one piece of gear – his cellphone. He lost track of Pine Link Trail and called wardens for help just before 6 p.m. Walsh had not eaten much all day besides Slim Fast and because temperatures are known to drop to the 30s in the mountains, Sgt. Saunders decided to send in a whole crew of rescue workers. Nine people responded from the DFG, Androscoggin Valley Search and Rescue Team and American Mountain Club searchers.

Rescuers finally found him “a good distance” off the trail at 11 p.m. that night. After his condition was evaluated, and he was given food and water, hiked back down the mountain, the time was 4 a.m. Sgt. Saunders had to attend a law enforcement course in Concord early the next day after just one hour of sleep. In an interview with the Union Leader, Sgt. Saunders vented his frustration at aiding the ill-prepared and careless.

“I am fed up, and it just doesn’t get through to people,” Saunders said. “We try to put it out to people; we talk about this stuff all the time. Maybe it’s just because we live around here and most of us know not to go in the mountains unless we’re prepared; I don’t know.”

The DFG has the option of recommending to the New Hampshire Attorney General’s Office that the state seek reimbursement for rescue services. Sgt. Saunders said he will definitely recommend that the department seek payment from Walsh.

Similarly, rescue workers at Grand Teton National Park have proposed that participants in outdoor activities pay an additional “special use” fee for particularly hazardous adventures like two Wyoming men’s backcountry ski trip in April of 2011.

Walker Pannell Kuhl, 27, of Salt Lake City, Utah and Gregory Seftick, 31, of Columbia Falls, Montana had gone a weekend backcountry ski trip in a remote part of Grand Teton National Park. Kuhl, a federal bank examiner, and Seftick, an emergency room doctor, intended to explore the Teepe Pillar and Teepe Glacier features of the 13,770 foot Grand Teton.

On April 18, when the men didn’t show up for work. Kuhl’s girlfriend notified authorities. An extensive search was initiated. Touted as one of the most expensive searches in Grand Teton history, rescuers found the men six days after they were reported missing. Three more feet of snow fell, the rescuers were grounded many times because of bad weather and probing the snow with standard 10-foot telescoping metal poles was not enough to reach the skiers. In total, the rescue-recovery operation cost $115,000, more than double of any previous search on Grand Teton. After six days of one of the most costly search-and-rescue operations in Wyoming history, the two men’s bodies were recovered still tucked in their sleeping bags after a massive avalanche on April 16 buried them in 13 feet of snow.

The county coroner surmised that the two men died of asphyxiation within minutes of being covered. Rangers at the scene didn’t even find ice crystals near the men’s faces which means that the men were not breathing for any significant amount of time after the slide.

Typically, rescue operations are simple. They range from a child wandering away from his/her parents, a senior who becomes disoriented or boaters who have too much to drink.

Yet in total for 2009, Park Service workers across the nation conducted 3,568 search and rescues that cost a total of more than $4.8 million. The remote and rugged parks are the costliest. Alaska’s Denali National Park has had three prolonged searches that cost between $118,000 to $132,000. Some officials have pointed out the fact that none of the people rescued paid the bill and neither did the families of Kuhl nor Seftick.

In a particular point of contention, taxpayer dollars covered the costs. The FAQ on Grand Canyon’s website says that emergency rescue operations are covered by the taxpayer, but those rescued must pay for any ground ambulance transport or supporting commercial aeromedical transportation.

In light of the national budget crisis, Denali and other parks have explored the idea of charging an additional “special use” fee for high-risk dangerous adventures. Denali even proposed a $500-per-climber fee to scale the peak that the park is named after.

Climbing organizations contend that $500 is too much, but say that a fee is not a bad idea.

A former risk assessment officer with the Park Service in Washington, D.C. and current Recreation and Tourism Studies Professor at the University of North Dakota, Travis Heggie said he thinks the cost of such rescue operations is much higher than the published figures. “I think if all the dollar figures were added — such as hidden equipment wear-and-tear and medical costs — there would be a doubling of the true search and rescue figures,” he postulated.

Moreover, the problem is not the money, which even at the $10 million mark is a fraction of the National Park Service’s $2.75 billion annual budget, but the greater issue is that it takes away money from other valuable programs.

Currently, the money to fund search-and-rescue is taken from general funds, but Heggie argues that there should be a fund set aside for those operations since it’s inevitable that they will happen.

Others have proposed that high-risk adventurers be required to arrange private travel insurance that will pay for search, rescue and medical treatment as European climbers do.

But some of the most experienced rangers are opposed to charging those who they rescue. Park Service Spokesman in Washington D.C. Jeffrey Olson told WyoFile, “our policy is that if we start charging for search and rescue, people would not ask for help or would delay asking for help.”

[Winter]

$4.8 mill? Whoopde do. I bet one trailer park gets that much a yr in handouts.

[GiLLiGaNN]

I dont agree by any means that the rescued should be liable for the expense for the rescue. but at the same time, something has to be done to prevent those who have zero knowledge about the surroundings and still decide to try their luck.

[hunter63]

What is the reference source for this article?

[lucznik]

I'm on the fence here. SAR efforts are incredibly expensive and the numbers cited don't take into account the lost wages and/or vacation time to the volunteers who make up these teams. It's not all LEOs that respond to SAR call outs. However, I don't know that charging people for the service is the right answer - any more than charging people for 911 calls would be allowable or advisable.

The problem of super-expensive SAR call-outs to find dumb people who didn't do the right things to prepare was egregious enough among hunters in Wyoming that we passed a law some time ago that forbids non-resident hunters from entering any designated wilderness areas unless they are accompanied by a guide (a position that can be served by any Wyoming resident, not necessarily a licensed guide). Similar restrictions have not been placed on non-hunters.

[Old GI]

"Fee-for-Service" for emergency responses have been going on for some time; mostly in the volunteer fire department area, the stated reason is usually "due to budget limitations.". When i was a County EM Director, we never charged for the County volunteer SAR responses. I just found out the County disbanded the SAR Team and gave the mission to the Fire Departments; yes, the very ones starting Fee-for-Service.

[GiLLiGaNN]

http://www.outdoorhub.com/news/rescue-searchers-argue-that-lost-hikers-should-pay-rescue-costs/ This is the source for the article.

[SARKY]

It is one thing if you have made all the preps you should have, It is a whole nother story when you are an irresponsible soot putting yourself and others in danger. The irresponsible ones need to be held accountable .

[GiLLiGaNN]

I can agree with you Sarky when you put it like that. The irresponsible should be held responsible. They could also possibly institute a check in box. When you sign in with where you are going, what you are wearing, and your time frame and then mandate it.

[tsitenha]

Those who get lost or need extraction because of their own negligence should be held responsible, but to what degree? I would think community service in the vein of taking a SAR course and participate SAR rescues might be a viable course of action.

[hunter63]

http://www.outdoorhub.com/news/rescue-searchers-argue-that-lost-hikers-should-pay-rescue-costs/ This is the source for the article.

Would have been nice to quote this up front.
Just copy and paste is just plain plagiarism.

[tsitenha]

Don't they have cough medicine for "plagiarism"

[jcullen24]

No I don't think rescuee's should have to pay a fee for being rescued.
I find the idea akin to toll roads, double charging the taxpayers!
How long have our tax dollars payed for the parks, the upkeep and the salary of the parks employees?
It is unfortunate that some people go unprepared into the wild. There are some situations that are unforseen.
Those two that were buried in the avalance come to mind.
I never like the idea of giving yet more money to the government!

[Rick]

Who's defining fully prepared and ill prepared? What standard is it judged against? You might go out "fully prepared" and I come along and rescue you and judge you ill prepared. Just the fact that you have to be rescued hints that you may not have been prepared enough.

[kyratshooter]

If there is an injury involved the rescue should be free. Any other cost should be paid by the dufas that needed saving.

The tax payers should not have to pick up the tab when you wreck your car, you probably did not intend to do that either. Same for having more testosterone than brains. Just because you own an SAK and a pair of cargo pants does not mean you know what you are doing.

You do not put a beginning skier on the advanced course. You are negligent if you let him out there. Resorts get sued for that kind of negligence.

Same for hiking trails. I know of one wilderness area where you sign in, they check your gear and give you a quick quizz before letting you out alone. Big South Fork requires back country permits. Glacier National Park at one time had a required "Backpack school" you had to clear before hiking the back country.

If you do not have the training or equipment or it is your first walk in the woods stay on the senic overlook, the park campground or go to that Park Resort Inn we were talking about in that other thread!

If you are going to be stupid you better have the cash to cover it.

[BENESSE]

+1 kyrat--on all points.

[Old Professor]

Our state and national parks are woefully under funded and park personell generally do not make above minimum wages if that. Why should everyone have to pay for idiots that put themselves survival situations for lack of knowlege and equipment. Rescuing some one who is injured in an accident is far different in my opinion than rescuiing someone who blindly goes in harms way. I support requiring insurance coverage/training course requirements/equipment requirements before entering back country enviroments. Outdoor recreation and tourism is my area of professional study and teaching and one glaring under reported issue is urban dwellers going into back country under prepared and expecting the goverment (ie: the park rangers) to save their miserable butts when the outback turns out NOT to be a walk in Central Park.

[Sarge47]

So did they fine the two dead guys found in their sleeping bags? Listen up people, SAR personnel also die out there looking for lost hikers! Who's going to foot the bill for all of the resources used? This has been already going on in other places. Helicopter and airplane fuel cost big bucks these days. I say that if you're dumb enough to go out on a trail without the proper gear you shouldn't even be allowed outside of your house without your mommy! :yes:

[Rick]

So based on that logic if you call the police because of a home invasion and you don't own a gun they should charge you?
There have been a lot names bandied around all based on the individual's own skill/training or at least on their perceived skill/training. If there is no standard established to base your actions against how can you say what is right or wrong. And where are all the folks that harp about the guberment interfering with more laws? I thought for sure there would be a bevvy of posts saying the government doesn't have any right to keep you out of the wilderness. And let's face it. If you thought going to the woods might wind up costing you a medivac flight as well as the cost of a dozen folks called out to aid you, you'd think twice about going out there. And if something did happen you might not call because you don't want to pay. And what about when someone else calls about you? Do you still get charged? You're not the one that called.

This is a pretty slippery slope you all seem to want to tread down. It's nice to know that all of you are so well trained and geared up that nothing bad would ever happen to you. Why don't we just pay an annual access fee added to our taxes to pay for SAR? After all, it's my opinion that I'm the only one trained enough and with the right amount of gear to never need SAR. The rest of you dufuses should know better.

[hunter63]

Rick, good point.....We don't need more rules and laws......and guess what?....Stuff is gonna happen, no matter how much you charge or what rules you make.
I can see it now, 'Sir, will it be a credit or debit card you will be using today?.......I'ts a holiday so the rates are double.

Another step to the Nanny state.

[Rick]

Coast Guard Helicopter to floundering fishing boat.

"Sea Fish this is Coast Guard One on site. Will this be Check or Credit Card?"
"We're taking on water here!"
"I understand but we have to settle up before we can send the basket down. Now, check or credit card?"

[Rick]

What Daniel Boone's sign might have said........

"D. Boon paid for SAR under tree in the year 1760"

[BENESSE]

Outdoor recreation and tourism is my area of professional study and teaching and one glaring under reported issue is urban dwellers going into back country under prepared and expecting the goverment (ie: the park rangers) to save their miserable butts when the outback turns out NOT to be a walk in Central Park.

Perhaps it's under reported because, A. most of them would prefer to rough it out in a five star Caribbean resort and B. they don't even come close to the good ol' boys who tend to overestimate their skill level just because they carry a survival knife.

[crashdive123]

Here's how I think it should work......in an ideal Crash world.

If you need search and rescue, they respond. Those that needed it and are able make a nice donation to help fund operations would do so out of a sense of gratitude.

Of all of the places that my tax money is spent, this is one area that I do not have a problem with. To me, it would be a sad day when some "official" determines if your are qualified and prepared enough to enjoy the beauty of the wilderness. We should be encouraging more people to get out and enjoy the natural beauty of the outdoors. If more people did - rather than sit around and play video games or text messaging 24/7 there would be a lot fewer problems in this world.

[BENESSE]

Crash, I don't think anyone would disagree with you. But unless there are some consequences to willful irresponsibility people will continue to waste limited collective resources and put other lives in danger.

[COWBOYSURVIVAL]

Here's how I think it should work......in an ideal Crash world.

If you need search and rescue, they respond. Those that needed it and are able make a nice donation to help fund operations would do so out of a sense of gratitude.

Of all of the places that my tax money is spent, this is one area that I do not have a problem with. To me, it would be a sad day when some "official" determines if your are qualified and prepared enough to enjoy the beauty of the wilderness. We should be encouraging more people to get out and enjoy the natural beauty of the outdoors. If more people did - rather than sit around and play video games or text messaging 24/7 there would be a lot fewer problems in this world.

I agree everyone should go exploring the wilds of Florida...Absolutely no one should come here to the swamp!

[Sarge47]

I'm not advocating charging them money, but trying to find a viable solution to this enigma! Obviously the guy that advocates that the lost dude be billed for the cost of finding his lost butt was acting emotionally. Here's the thing, In most, if not all states you can't get a hunting license without going through a hunter's safety course of some kind; then you need to get a license. You can't legally fish in any State waterway in Illinois without a fishing license. SEARCHER'S DIE trying to find lost hikers, skiers, climbers, and the like! I wish that Rick SAR would come on here and weigh in on this. However, check out what he posts in post #497 here: http://www.wilderness-survival.net/forums/showthread.php?430-Survivorman-Man-vs-Wild&p=80936#post80936 And remember, he's the real deal! :yes: Maybe we need to have some kind of mandatory licensing or even outdoor training for hikers and campers, I don't know. They should at least be required to check in with a ranger before going out and maybe given a check list of gear with the hopes that they know how to use it! Perhaps Chris could have them post the web address of this site for any or all interested in going out into the woods. Just sayin'...:cowboy:

[kyratshooter]

What Daniel Boone's sign might have said........

"D. Boon paid for SAR under tree in the year 1760"

Boone got lost in the spring of 1771 and they had to send Kasper Mansker, one of the Tennessee boys, out to find him. Mansker found him camped on the banks of the Green River, lying on a deer skin singing at the top of his voice, waiting for the indians to come and kill him and put him out of his misery.

The book did not say if they charged him for the effort. Mansker would have probably done it just so he would stop singing.

[crashdive123]

Crash, I don't think anyone would disagree with you. But unless there are some consequences to willful irresponsibility people will continue to waste limited collective resources and put other lives in danger.

Like I said....In the ideal Crash world.

I do think that if stupid was painful there would be a lot less of it. My concerns with the whole charging for a rescue if the person(s) that needed it were unprepared, or needed rescue due to irresponsibility is - who makes that determination? Is water, a compass and a whistle enough? Maybe to some, but for others they may need a 20 pound pack for a day hike. When I go hiking I take quite a bit more than I will need for a day hike. Why? Just in case I suppose. In case I might need it or more probably I'll run across somebody else that will. I just don't see a practical way to say that a hiker that needed rescue was qualified or prepared. Maybe they were at the start of the hike but then something happened.

[LowKey]

Around here they call 911 for getting lost in corn mazes and apple orchards.
Now those, they should charge. Call it a Bonehead tax.

Can you see someone like SD telling the government where to stick their Wilderness License?

[MichMetal]

This is crazy, what if the police or fire service started doing this next? We'll only save you if you foot the bill...I hope this is shot down and instead they create a "wilderness basics" coarse that is provided free and can teach would be hikers the basics of what they need etc...for each area. And have them at every park and outdoors locations.

Our society is becoming too obsessed over money, and it's crippling too many things. NASA is all but finished because of "budgets" and science in general is probably hurting as well.

[crashdive123]

Some fire departments already do this - mostly rural, where taxes pay for the equipment, building, etc. People that live outside the "tax area" have the option to pay a fee each year to be included under the fire protection "umbrella". Taxes also fund the police departments. When the tax revenues are down, or are spent on other things - fire and police are cut. Expecting somebody else to do something for (insert group of people they are doing it for here) at no charge is akin to stealing IMO. If somebody chooses to do it at no charge that's a whole 'nuther game.

[Old Professor]

This is slightly off topic but relevant. Several years ago I was in Ontario on a fishing trip at a boat in camp. There were other camps on the lake and a group from another camp was hiking into a remote lake when one member stopped to take a leak and got lost trying to follow the others of his group. After wandering around all day, he came out on the lake shore across from the island where our camp was located. This was about two or three hours before darkness would have fallen. In an attempt to get our attention, he built a bonfire on the shore line --in a big windrow of drift wood--with a 30/35 mph wind blowing on shore--can you say "instant forest fire"? We had just come from the dinning hall down to the docks and spotted the smoke. We quickly motored over to the fire and rescued him but the fire was racing up over the hill. Long story short- the Ont. Fire Service had to send in a water bomber and a big ground crew to put out the forest fire.
Now the point to this post is: If you start a forest fire for any reason, Ontario will bill you for the cost of putting out that fire!! The camp owner estimated that that cost would be in the neighborhood of $75K!

[lucznik]

I was surprised nobody jumped onto the "no non-resident hunters in wilderness areas" rule that I mentioned. Any other time I have brought that up with non-resident hunters I get a major earful of how the government has no right to impose such restrictions... etc. etc. ad nauseum. The worst part is that I don't even disagree with them.

Anyway, as I said, I'm on the fence about this. I recognize the incredible expense that SAR efforts involve and I agree that ideally, stupid people should be held accountable for their acts but, I'm not willing to give up any of my freedoms in order to punish them.

I would absolutely fight tooth and nail against any kind of regulation that limited (whether by intent or just through default) my right to enjoy the wilderness whenever and wherever I see fit. I already get all fired up when I go into some national parks and have to pay an access fee. I sure am not willing to let some bureaucratic idiot in Washington define what does or does not make me "qualified" or "prepared" enough to go climb some mountain that has struck my fancy. So too, requiring insurance policies to be in place just forces additional burdens on the poor and less fortunate - the very people who can least afford such "safety measures."

Part of the price of freedom is that even stupid people get to enjoy it too.

[Stairman]

This is a tuff subject to side with. For now I would say NO Pay for help by rescuers.

[jcullen24]

Looks like my work is done here :scooter:

[Wildthang]

Almost every year, ice fisherman go out on the ice too late in the year, and the schmucks sit in their ice houses while the ice shelf breaks loose drinking beer and fishing. Before they know it, 75 of them with their snowmobiles, ATVs, and all kinds of other stuff is out in the lake isolated from everything. Then it takes SAR 3 days to get them all off the ice shelf. The local SAR is going to start charging them heavily for this, because those people are so stupid and I dont blame them.
But the average hiker that makes a simple mistake, I dont know, maybe they should have mandatory survival training that they have to pay for!

[Rick]

How much are you willing to pay for this survival training? It's not they, it's us. And what standard is used to judge "stupid"?

I have my own standard, trust me, but I don't think I want the government defining it for me. I've failed my own standard too many times.

[Wildthang]

How much are you willing to pay for this survival training? It's not they, it's us. And what standard is used to judge "stupid"?

I have my own standard, trust me, but I don't think I want the government defining it for me. I've failed my own standard too many times.

I doubt if I will ever have to pay, but if I was new to hiking, got lost, and almost died in the wilderness, I would pay whatever they charged. It would be a way to get people aware of how to navigate so they wouldnt repeat the stunt all over again.
If people dont realize theyt are stupid, maybe somebody should judge them by some kind of standard, like, if you fish too late in the year against all of the ice fishing warnings on the news, and float away in the lake, your stupid, pretty simple!

[LowKey]

This is a weird site to be reading suggestions that say, "O Big Government, Save Me From My Stupidity"... That's an oxymoronic statement to begin with.

Anyone can take free or nearly free courses now, usually at a local sportsmans' store, on how to deal with wilderness things. Having a government requirement is not going to keep stupid people from doing stupid things. As Lucznik mentioned, why penalize the rest of us to coddle the stupid. Mistakes happen. Going off into the woods naked with a knife isn't a mistake. It's Darwin's theory at work.

[natertot]

I agree with Rick. Too much gubment and too slipery of a slope. I also believe people won't call if needed to avoid payment and die instead.

[kyratshooter]

I also believe people won't call if needed to avoid payment and die instead.

I supose it depends on how badly you want to die.

They make meds for that.

[gitaway]

Just out of curiosity, I am going to call local "adventure" stores here, and ymca and just see if any survival courses are offered. Probably not. g.

[BENESSE]

I agree with Rick. Too much gubment and too slipery of a slope. I also believe people won't call if needed to avoid payment and die instead.

Just for $hitz & giggles, let's go down that slippery slope.
The worst that can happen is, ill prepared tightwads end up paying anyway... with their lives.
What can possibly be wrong with that?

[Geek]

Transfer the funds out of the TSA budget. :-)

[Rick]

What happens when you....yes, YOU....hit a ______ (fill in the blank) going down the ski slope and you need to be airlifted out? What happens when Crash, the most prepared human being on the planet, has a weasel trip him on the trail and he snaps an ankle (his ankles are too strong so this is hypothetical)? It's not just ill prepared tightwads there missy. It's us ins and youse ins.

[Geek]

I don't mind if we use TSA funds to rescue irresponsible jerks. The government hands money to irresponsible jerks every day!

I mean if you had to choose between paying for rescuing a lost hiker who was too stupid to take some twinkies with him and paying a welfare queen not to work, what is your priority?

[BENESSE]

What happens when you....yes, YOU....hit a ______ (fill in the blank) going down the ski slope and you need to be airlifted out? What happens when Crash, the most prepared human being on the planet, has a weasel trip him on the trail and he snaps an ankle (his ankles are too strong so this is hypothetical)? It's not just ill prepared tightwads there missy. It's us ins and youse ins.

A. See post 15

2. If I'm on the ski run where I have no business being because of my skill level, I deserve what I get and should be accountable by covering additional costs to get my a$$ out. Additional, meaning beyond what's usually factored in the cost of lift tickets, rentals, etc.

It was simple when I was growing up. If something bad happened beyond my control, I got sympathy. If I should have known better, I got my ears boxed. If it made sense then, it makes sense now.

[BENESSE]

I don't mind if we use TSA funds to rescue irresponsible jerks. The government hands money to irresponsible jerks every day!

I mean if you had to choose between paying for rescuing a lost hiker who was too stupid to take some twinkies with him and paying a welfare queen not to work, what is your priority?

My priority is to make them work/pay for what they get. Why should I be responsible?

[colorado plainsman]

It is a slippery slope. The ones that drive me nuts are people that go out hiking wearing nothing but a pair of shorts, t-shirt and a water bottle. They take no jacket, compass or lighter. I am not saying saying taking your bug out bag but plan a bit better weather can very greatly out here 80 degree days in the foothills followed by afternoon rain showers and lows in the 40's over night sounds like a nice set up for hyperthermia. But like the old saying goes support SAR get lost.

[Rick]

Who defines all this stuff? Who says whether you are or are not qualified on a given ski run? Who says what equipment meets minimum standards for your level of knowledge and who defines what your level of knowledge is? If someone is on a 2 mile loop trail and gets hurt how would not having a compass or lighter make them liable? Slippery slope indeed.

[BENESSE]

Who defines all this stuff? Who says whether you are or are not qualified on a given ski run? Who says what equipment meets minimum standards for your level of knowledge and who defines what your level of knowledge is? If someone is on a 2 mile loop trail and gets hurt how would not having a compass or lighter make them liable? Slippery slope indeed.

Rick, we're talking gross negligence, not every single accident. It doesn't have to be an all or nothing proposition for something to be done to "encourage" idiots to be more responsible. For some people who don't have common sense and don't give a flying flick about anyone else, hitting them where it hurts most--their wallet--can be a powerful motivator. Otherwise, it wouldn't be used so much.

[1stimestar]

Which government agency will be responsible for enforcing these collections? And how will they get money from someone who has none to spare? Oh yea, garnish wages, tax returns, etc.

[Desert Rat!]

What happens when you....yes, YOU....hit a ______ (fill in the blank) going down the ski slope and you need to be airlifted out? What happens when Crash, the most prepared human being on the planet, has a weasel trip him on the trail and he snaps an ankle (his ankles are too strong so this is hypothetical)? It's not just ill prepared tightwads there missy. It's us ins and youse ins.
I know Chuck Norris fashioned his ankles after Crashes !

[Rick]

Woman....I'd come over there and whoop up on ya if you didn't have all those knives.

Where's the line on gross negligence? You have to define it. It's probably a lot like pornography. I can't define it but I know it when I see it?

Chuck Norris is nothing.....Do you know how long Crash had to stay underwater? Months! And he held his breath!!

[old2531]

ive heard of some citys charging for false alarm calls to your house their reasoning is while they are comming to a bad call for u someone else could be dieing