Why "They" want to move to Wilderness, My answer.

[Sourdough]

I'm trying to figure out why people keep wanting to leave society. I think that bonding together in a strong community solves the problem better.



No one I know who is successful at what they do regardless of what that happens to be--student, parent, carpenter, farmer, doctor, etc. and has a wide circle of friends and a rewarding relationship is interested in dropping out and leaving society behind.


I have tried to solve this riddle for years. I have never understood the desire to improve the quality of ones life by moving to the wilderness.

Lady B's statement gave my a strong clue. I have always assumed they were running "TO" wilderness. I now see that this was a false assumption........In fact they are running from perceived oppression.

The examples Lady B gives are people in control of their life (for the most part). However these same people (Successful) are a perceived extension of the system, the example being the electric utility company and the dream of being "Off-Grid".

It is not that they choose to move to the wilderness. It is that they perceive wilderness as the only way of avoiding the oppression of society. It subconscious flight for survival.

The distinction of running toward a goal vs. running for your life. It has also helped me understand why so few truly even embark on the quest.

[KhonHd]

It is not that they choose to move to the wilderness. It is that they perceive wilderness as the only way of avoiding the oppression of society. It subconscious flight for survival.


Great insight Sourdough!

[Old Professor]

Great insight! I have considered moving to wilderness to live at times when I was younger and after deep thought, realized that in every case I would not have been going toward a goal but rather withdrawing from a circumstance that was frustrating me. As I have aged and my health has deteriorated, I came to the realization that living in the wilderness is not practical for me at my age. My compromise has been to move to a small community in the north woods. I have the modern services that I need, while being able to enjoy a primitive enviroment. I really hate big urban areas and love the forested regions around Lake Superior.

[Thaddius Bickerton]

Yes, I did not move to my homestead / start living simpler until I changed my mind from get away from it all to great better life that I can always enjoy today and come what may tommorrow.

Thanks for sharing the insite.

[JPGreco]

Its actually in the same vein as why people do a lot of things, or wish to do things. Its a perception that A will solve B, when B really has nothing to do with A. A good example of this is the world of online gaming, such as World of Warcraft. A lot of people "escape" into it in order to run away from aspects of their life they dislike. The real question needs to be is A something you can do something about or not. Obviously if you can do something about it, you should start taking action. However, if its not something you can do anything about, learning to understand and accept that is the only thing a person can do.

[Wildthang]

Well I am pretty sure that if I had to, i could be happy in an off grid wilderness situation living by myself, but only in a have to case. First of all, the girls would go into shock within 2 days, and second of all, I really like modern conveniences for everyday life. I like learning survival as a tool that I may need someday, not to live everyday.
I think part of survival is learning to do without when you have to, but not necessarily doing without for your entire life.

[Rick]

I have to agree, JP. The same with alcohol and drugs. It's just an escape. You can either control life or let it control you. I admire folks that do live off grid in the wilderness because they want to. It's a lifestyle they enjoy but have to really wonder about the person that wants to live off grid because tomorrow is going to be the great apocalypse.

The only thing I'd change SD is they are not running FOR their life they are running FROM it.

I'd love to live off grid but to me that means utilizing renewable energy in the home I now have. Not shucking timber in the Northwest Territories to build a cabin with an icebox made from burlap, sawdust, reindeer moss that's 8X6, 10x8, 12X10.

[randyt]

very interesting, I wonder what Ted kuzinsky, Heimo korth, chris mccandless, sylvan hart, dugout dick, miles martin, rat river trapper, etc. ran from. I think they each had or have their own reasons not necessarily running from something in every case.

If somebody wants to try it all I have to say is good luck.

[Sourdough]

You guys are adding a judgement to the issue. My goal was not to judge, but to understand the motivation.

[Wildthang]

The only people I have ever known to go off grid, was just tired of the rat race, and probably had the desire to live off the grid to boot. So eventually the day comes that they say to H*ll with it, it's time.
I knew a very successful, very intelligent aeronautical engineer that did that. He seemed to want the challenge as much as getting out of the rat race. He said it was the perfect way to finish his life here on earth.
Now, he was quite wealthy and was able to get solar equipment, and had lot's of the comforts even though he was off grid. He said he was happier than he had ever been, so if done right, I am sure it would be a very pleasurable way to live.
He also said that he was tired of traffic, neighbors, and feeling like he was living by the rules of the man.
But this is a lot different than poor boyin it. That is a lot of work, and a tough life for most, so I think a lot of it is the challenge as much as anything!

[Rick]

You just lost me. I didn't say they were right or wrong other then those that profess the end of times. That's not the case with most that come on here and report they are running off to the wilderness, often with nothing in hand, and living in the wild. I'm not being judgmental because I said they are running from life. That's their motivation. They are trying to escape.

[Wildthang]

I actaully think a lot of folks see it as a carefree poetic way to live, and really don't think about all of the hard work, isolation, and financial issues that go with off grid living. It is a lot of fun to think about and discuss, and even dream about, but a lot of dreamers fail to see things the way they really are until they are already in a situation and then realize wow, this is a tough life that I wasn't ready for!

[kyratshooter]

I am seeing a distinct difference in personal definitions of "off grid".

Are we speaking of off the utilities and convinineces or are we talking of hiding out with Ted Kaczynski in a shack in Montana?

[SARKY]

I think I have a valid answer for that question, (having moved to an urban area (SF Bay area) from a rural area (New Gloucester, ME). People in urban environments tend to be selfish, self centered turds who think that the world revolves around them. There is also a great deal of apathy and entitlement with the "government will save us" attitude. I was brought up to be self sufficient and so I tend to have great distain for these people. There are a few who are awake or awakening to whom I dole out as much information, training and when possible supplies. People want a better life style and they can't get it in an urban environment. Many don't necessarily want to run away to the wilderness as much as they want to run away to a rural or true suburban environment.

[JPGreco]

You guys are adding a judgement to the issue. My goal was not to judge, but to understand the motivation.

I actually don't mean it in a judgmental way. The motivation can be a desire to escape/run from something that they do not like about their life. That thought process leads different people to different conclusions. Some end in nothing more than a desire for X, some end in more tragically (drugs/alcohol), and some people do succeed (as in they find a place and do escape from some things). The key to remember here is that if it is a desire to escape/run from X, then a person needs to make sure X is not something that will come with them (ie emotional issues). Now, my judgement on the issue is that I believe a lot of people who come in with a very vague question or comment on wanting to get out of society and live in the woods as survival situation are either dreaming or trying to get away from something, again though, that last part is my opinion.

I also to agree with Wildthang that most people have a romanticized concept of living in "off grid" (which, as Kyrat pointed out should be defined to prevent arguements over semantics). I mean even I would love to live like they did in Legends of the Fall. But even then, I have very little real knowledge of what it would take to live even in a small town that is a little isolated, so that idea of living like that isn't the reality of the situation.

Now, I do believe some people do just want to get away like the person Wildthang talked about, but I would think they would come in and ask in a different manner. Probably with more interest in those of you who are living like that. If they really had it in their head to move, I would think they would ask who lives like they want to and then ask direct questions. This part is opinion though.

[BENESSE]

Escaping once in a while to recharge your batteries and needing to 'running away' for good, are two different things, IMO.
Having had a range of feelings regarding "society" throughout my life one thing became clear; you can run away from others but you can't run away from yourself. Whatever issues you have, you'll be carrying them around wherever you go. If you were unhappy with others, you'll be unhappy all by yourself...eventually.
You are the ground zero of your inner happiness. People and fortunes will come and go, but you're the constant in your life til the day you die. Get comfy with yourself and don't give away the power to anyone/anything else to make you happy.

[randyt]

I think I have a valid answer for that question, (having moved to an urban area (SF Bay area) from a rural area (New Gloucester, ME). People in urban environments tend to be selfish, self centered turds who think that the world revolves around them. There is also a great deal of apathy and entitlement with the "government will save us" attitude. I was brought up to be self sufficient and so I tend to have great distain for these people. There are a few who are awake or awakening to whom I dole out as much information, training and when possible supplies. People want a better life style and they can't get it in an urban environment. Many don't necessarily want to run away to the wilderness as much as they want to run away to a rural or true suburban environment.

you're not alone in this assessment.

[BENESSE]

A huge part of survival is adaptability.
Make the best of where you are, learn to live with it and be happy. Choosing the lesser of two evils still means you have a choice.
You're wasting a lot of time, Sarky, being unhappy in a place you chose to move to. You're not getting that time back, you know.

[SARKY]

Miss B, It is not where I am living that is the problem, It IS the other people who choose to be scum in our society especially in the urban environment. Yes I know there are scum everywhere, they just seem to be more concentrated here.

[jcullen24]

Perfectly said Sourdough!

I've always seen the oppression of the masses; The Tyranny of the greater society.
I've often, more so recently, thought of leaving society for the woods.

Thanks for putting it so eloquently

[Winter]

Well said SD. I'm not in the wilderness, nor do I want to live in it. I love living close to it and enjoy being in it. It's 100 yards away but I have all the modern conveniences.

I want the skills to do it, and I have set up temporary wilderness housing on a few occasions. This summer I intend to improve a few remote camping spots further.

Washing my netherregions in 37 degree seawater is awful, and amazing at the same time. It does make me yearn for a water heater.

[Rick]

I've always seen the oppression of the masses; The Tyranny of the greater society.

Seriously? We live in a land where you can travel anywhere you want without having to show papers, work in any job or profession your heart desires, make as little or as much money as you want, carry a weapon, hunt, fish, hike in some of the most beautiful country in the world, run for any office you chose, live your life any way you want, practice any religion you choose or none at all and actually get news that's factual and not state fabricated. That's oppression of the masses? Tyranny of the greater society? Maybe you should try North Korea, China, Zimbabwe, Thailand, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Ethiopia, Turkmenistan or Syria (to name a few). That might put things in perspective. Have you ever been outside the U.S.? America is heaven my friend.

[BENESSE]

+1 Rick.
Takes some getting out into the world to appreciate what we take for granted at home. Being away myself at the moment makes me count the hours before I return.

[Sarge47]

I've always seen the oppression of the masses; The Tyranny of the greater society.
I've often, more so recently, thought of leaving society for the woods.

I'm with Rick on this one. What makes you think the woods are the answer? People can find you there as well as anywhere else! True survival is NOT running away from your problems, but taking them "head on" and coming out on top! :cool2:

[Wildthang]

I think one thing we haven't discussed, is primal instinct. Man has not always lived in a modern society, so could some people still have the primal instinct to basically live like animals?
Things like fight or flight, jealousy, greed, anger are all primal instincts as far as I'm concerned. So again, could some people still have the desire to hunt and gather food, and simply not feel comfortable, or need to live in modern society?
Think about it, as much as we would like to think that we have left our primal ancestors behind, I think a lot of primal instincts still exist within us!

[motor3593]

I agree with Sourdough. I can not imagine why any one thinks that going wild is a good choice. Just the amount of STUFF needed to comfortably survive the wild is tremendous. Things like electricity, running water, a septic system, communications, and shelter none of these things are easy to come by in the wilderness. And then what about family? You may not have nieces, nephews, brothers, sisters, aunts, uncles, cousins, etc... that yo care for but how about friends? Can you just leave them all behind? I for one believe that when something terrible happens the Christian side of people will come out rather than the evil side that takes advantage of peoples misfortune. There are examples of this on the news every time something happens. Tornado destroys town, people band together and help each other rebuild, when earthquakes hit we send millions, hurricane Katrina hit and people were relocated and helped to rebuild.
However, if someone would want to escape the violence of a big city, I can relate, they should not wait for some sort of disaster to force their hand. If living where you do makes life less enjoyable than moving to where you perceive it to be better, well then move now, life is short. As the song goes, regrets I've had a few, but to few to mention. Do it your way!

[Northern Horseman]

I would have to say this topic has been covered very well and the only thing I can add is my experience with working with the homeless, by that I mean people that choose to live on the street, some of them without government support of any kind.

Some were mentally ill, but some of them were just damaged, what I would call too sensitive for our harsh world, what we would call damaged goods.
Some of the people I met had been successful at one point in there lives, but stress or loss of love had left permanent scares that none of us can ever see without entering their world.

I bring all this up because maybe a lot of the people who run off to the wild are just too sensitive to live in society, are adversely affected by large crowds and the constant stress of the city.

There are many ways to run away, my brother is a good example, he is very sensitive and easily hurt, he functions well enough in society, but in order to cope he works at camp jobs, constantly away from home for long periods of time.

When he is home his focus is drinking and drugs, this has lead to him spending a small fortune on lawyers so he can remain driving for work, in effect his ultra sensitivity leads him to a life of self destruction.

Life is tough, some make it and some don't, some thrive on stress and some are just too sensitive for this world, if their only way to cope is to leave to the wilds on their own romantic adventure, all the power to them.

Some times all the motivation one needs is just to be able to wake up in the morning to the sound of the wind in the trees instead of the honking of morning traffic.

As some of you have mentioned living in the wild is a hard life, but for some it might be all they can handle emotionally.

[jcullen24]

Maybe you should try North Korea, China, Zimbabwe, Thailand, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Ethiopia, Turkmenistan or Syria

You know, I spent 7 years in the military. I've seen a few of those countries. Guess what, the problems in those countries are that the people are in an urban setting. That tyranny I was talking about was magnified in those countries. I'm successful enough here in this setting, but I do wish I could abandon it all and go thrive in the wilderness. I know it's the responsibilities that I'm talking about. The having to pay the Bills, and the traffic tickets, and the going to the different stores full of people packed in so tightly you can't turn around.

I'm making a list that's beginning to sound like the antithesis of "These are a few of my favorite things" from the sound of music!
We'll call it, these are a few of my hated things!

Traffic tickets
Toll Roads
Over Crowded Grocery Stores! <-- Over crowded period!
Getting up at 04:45 in the morning to go to work.
Electricity Bills! <-- I've thought of this one quite a bit, It doesn't matter how old you are, you'll always have to pay the electricity!
Bills in perpetuity, I hate the idea that till the day we die, we will be paying a bill! We'll have at least one last bill even after we're dead!

Other people's belief in what is right and wrong, Societies morals code! How dare you tell me what's right and wrong if it doesn't affect you?

The most fun I had in my life was in the wilderness. In the Creeks of South Carolina pulling Shrimp, Crab, and Oyster out of those creeks, In the mountain woods of West Virginia, or when I was in the field in the Army.

I know my fantasy is to run from my responsibilities.

As far as our living in a better society than all those other countries? Really? Is our system so much better than other countries? Of course it's better than N. Korea etc. But scratch the surface just a little bit. If you can't pay your bills, you will end up homeless, and the lens you look through wont be so rosy.

I also wonder if those people in those oppressive societies had any wilderness survival skills, would they still be oppressed? How much better off would they be if they abandoned the city with the cities oppressive systems, for the woods or mountains?

[jake abraham]

thanks for your thoughts on this subject SD

[jcullen24]

Umm deleted, didn't realize how morbid the article was.
If anyone read it

[ClayPick]

I think some people get their sense of autonomy snuffed out as the population density thickens. Oppression is a bit strong ...... confining maybe?

[Rick]

JC, you offer some valid points. Yes, I do believe there is a world of difference between our society and the ones I mentioned. It's not all urban either. The rural folks in particular live an existence life at best and in some countries they don't do that. At least here if someone has a problem there are safety nets in place to catch them, if they choose to utilize them. Food pantries/food bank, religious organizations, state and federal agencies and places like Habitat for Humanity, just to name a very few, simply don't exist in those countries I mentioned.

I also enjoy time spent in the woods. I enjoy the quiet, back to nature and all that goes with that. But I sure wouldn't trade it for a life in any other country in the world.

[Wildthang]

I think that there are some people that just dont like society, and the rules that go with it. Therefore they are happier in the off grid scene, and are willing to deal with the inconveniences to live the life. Yeah it's escaping, or running from society, whatever you want to call it, but who cares.
I wont judge those people, because if they are truly happier off grid, that is cool with me. Not everybody has the ability to deal with the responsibilities of modern life.
I have lived in big cities, and had high pressure jobs, and it's no fun, and I felt like a caged animal. I dont need the off grid life, just living in the country, and having a good job close to home, without tons of pressure has made me very happy. Yeah I have some pressure, but nothing like it used to be.
I lived in Indianapolis and owned a home there for 10 years. I managed projects at the Eli Lilly Company, and was under so much pressure that it was awefull. At that point in my life, I know I would have been happier living out in the woods, but we just keep pressing on.
That kind of life does take a toll on a person, and some people just finally say to H*ll with it, I can't take it anymore! I got close to that point, but I just never give up.
Society has become very difficult to deal with, and I can totally understand when people want to gain a simple way of life.

[Rick]

Wait, wait, wait, hold the phone! You moved from Indiana to Ohio?! You moved FROM Indiana TO Ohio?! I'm shocked. Shocked I tell ya!

[Wildthang]

Wait, wait, wait, hold the phone! You moved from Indiana to Ohio?! You moved FROM Indiana TO Ohio?! I'm shocked. Shocked I tell ya!

And I like it here much better. But there are reasons not involving Indiana. I now live 8 miles from work, country roads all the way here, no traffic, and the only reason I go to town is to eat out or buy something I need. The town I go to is small but has everything I need so again, no traffic. The job I have here has very little pressure compared to any job in the big city environment even though it's at a refinery.
My house here is in the country, and I have a beautiful place with only 2 neighbors, one across the road, and the other one about 500 yards to the east. My neighbors never bother us, and never ask for anything.
Little to no crime as well. So I am very happy here because of many factors of life and not just Indy. Have you ever been to Carmel at rush hour.................nuff said! Another factor is that the girls family's are here, so I now have family close by, and that is something I haven't had in years of travelling.
Indy is a nice town, and if I wanted to live in a big city, it would be Indy, but it can't compare to this spot in Ohio because of my personal requirements.

[Rick]

Yeah, I've been to Carmel at rush hour. That's not really a rush hour. It's kind of a "mess of cars for 45 minutes". They are opening 31 so it's non-stop all the way from Indy North to about 266th st. They are putting in overhead round abouts at all the intersections. No more stop and go traffic. It's just go traffic.

[Wildthang]

Yeah, I've been to Carmel at rush hour. That's not really a rush hour. It's kind of a "mess of cars for 45 minutes". They are opening 31 so it's non-stop all the way from Indy North to about 266th st. They are putting in overhead round abouts at all the intersections. No more stop and go traffic. It's just go traffic.

Well they sure needed that! I have always thought that Indy had good traffic control with the 465 loop with the exception of Carmel and downtown at rush hour. Even when the cart races are going on, the traffic flows pretty good.
I swear I hated the Carmel rush hour so bad!

[natertot]

Wait, wait, wait, hold the phone! You moved from Indiana to Ohio?! You moved FROM Indiana TO Ohio?! I'm shocked. Shocked I tell ya!

Welcome to the finer things in life! :winkiss:

[Rick]

Now that right there is funny I don't care who you are. God Bless them little slow drivers in the fast lane down there in New Guinea.

[wildWoman]

I have tried to solve this riddle for years. I have never understood the desire to improve the quality of ones life by moving to the wilderness.

Lady B's statement gave my a strong clue. I have always assumed they were running "TO" wilderness. I now see that this was a false assumption........In fact they are running from perceived oppression.

The examples Lady B gives are people in control of their life (for the most part). However these same people (Successful) are a perceived extension of the system, the example being the electric utility company and the dream of being "Off-Grid".

It is not that they choose to move to the wilderness. It is that they perceive wilderness as the only way of avoiding the oppression of society. It subconscious flight for survival.

The distinction of running toward a goal vs. running for your life. It has also helped me understand why so few truly even embark on the quest.

I don't think it's wise to make a general assumption as to why people move into the bush. I have to disagree with Benesse's statement that nobody who's successful in life would move into the bush. My partner was working for the Ministry of Forests and I was working for an environmental organisation, and we had (and still have) a great circle of friends in the village. We quit our jobs and left our friends not because we're a couple of losers but because we wanted to live our dream.
Another bush person I know owned a car dealership. Another couple were working in the tourism industry. Somebody else I know was a teacher. None of them are sociopathic weirdos.

For one thing, you'll always be a part of society. Nobody grows up and lives in a vacuum - people who think society stinks also have family and friends that they'll stay in touch with. And bureaucracy will find you in the deepest, darkest woods.

Moving into the bush doesn't automatically mean that whoever does it feels oppressed by society. We certainly didn't. We moved out here because we didn't want to just keep a weekend relationship with wilderness, we wanted to grab the chance of living as closely with the land, its plants and animals as we could, and make a full-time commitment out of it. Simply because our idea of having a good time is to go for a hike, snowshoe or paddle where no other human beings are around, watching animals do their thing, and because we wanted to be more familiar with the bush and what's going on there on a day-to-day basis.
It was still a really hard decision precisely because we did not want to "drop out of society". In a way, that eventually happens to a certain degree though. Over the years, the number of people you can actually relate to tends to dwindle because your day-to-day living experience is just utterly different. There are only so many people out there who still understand what you're actually talking about when you say the woods have been just dead the last three weeks and now it's like 3-4 moose a day. Often, you find yourself holding monologues because all people can say is "wow" and "oh that must be neat" and "really". It's not easy to find people on the same wavelength who enjoy hours of conversation about animal tracks, the movement of game and speculation of what this year's weather pattern will mean for animal activity and cycles.

So far us, our quality of life has improved by moving into the bush in that we're doing the things we want to do, that we're passionate about. Is it perfect? No. But to me, it's as close to perfection as I can get.

[BENESSE]

WW, you don't fit the profile of people I was referring to. And neither do 1strimester or Sourdough, for that matter. I was talking about newbies who are contemplating dropping out completely, because, (their words, not mine) they hate society, find the system oppressive but would think nothing of squatting on someone else's land.

I can certainly relate to your lifestyle choice and often fantasize about doing it myself. And if I could afford to get away for a few years without serious consequences, I definitely would.

[wildWoman]

I was talking about newbies who are contemplating dropping out completely, because, (their words, not mine) they hate society, find the system oppressive but would think nothing of squatting on someone else's land.

Thanks for the clarification :)
I very much doubt any of those people actually end up doing that or if so, for longer than a few months. It's not something they really, honestly want to do, IMO, it's something to dream and yap about - like the "surviving for a year with a knife and loincloth" crowd. It's just too hard to do if only a negative reason drives you. At least I don't know and haven't heard of a single bush person (= somebody who makes their longterm, fulltime home in a wilderness area without road access) up here who chose the lifestyle because they're fed up with society. (One exception being Sheslay Mike back in the 70s and 80s, but he was suffering from paranoid schizophrenia.)

[hunter63]

Hummm, I guess I just missed this thread completely?

Anyway, I/we are left over Homesteaders for the 70's and 80's......The old Going Back To The Land-ers......which I think has kinda be replaced with the "Extreme back to the land-ers?.........
Any way our motivation was self sufficiency, being off grid, growing, foraging, hunting, putting food by, with drying canning, drying, make your own power, and living in a more harmonious fashion.

As it turns out, the folks that believe that people run "from" something vs the" to" something, are on to a solid principle.......You can't run from yourself.

For us it turns out that a "homestead can be anywhere you are"...the location doesn't matter.

How does this apply to those that want to "go to the bush"?........I'm thinking it's pretty much the same.....and a hard row to hoe for any length of time.....and the older you get, becomes even more difficult.

Seen a lot of people "getting back to the land" as neighbors at the place, come and go, "burn out times" were directly related to how much money they had, or how they got along, (couples that is), problems they had in the big city seem to intensify, as they brought them with them.

I'm also thinking the as the interweb has made more information available, the minds of a lot more people find more things to fear, making the getting out of here GOOD even more attractive.

Everyone should give it a shot.....I know some people that just said, "Screw this, I'm outta here", and did the whole move off the grid, thing, and are back now.....Grand kids, health issues, and split ups....happen.

Personally, we have kinda chosen to have it both ways for the time being.........

[Rick]

I don't know anyone in their late teens/early 20s that doesn't look for some sense of adventure at that age. Everyone has their own definition. Some join the military, some take on risky jobs (fire jumper, fishing, etc.) and a small percentage want to head to the wilderness. There's probably some sense of romanticism in their minds as well after reading accounts about Jim Bowie or Jeremiah Johnson or the like.

[BENESSE]

I don't know anyone in their late teens/early 20s that doesn't look for some sense of adventure at that age. Everyone has their own definition. Some join the military, some take on risky jobs (fire jumper, fishing, etc.) and a small percentage want to head to the wilderness. There's probably some sense of romanticism in their minds as well after reading accounts about Jim Bowie or Jeremiah Johnson or the like.

I agree...been there in spirit myself.
But there's a whole nother contingency...loner, kept to himself, stayed mostly in his room playing video games, poor student, didn't participate in sports or any other group activity, didn't have a close relationship with parents or siblings, no friends, didn't date, etc, etc.
It doesn't take a Dr. Phil to figure out that a young person like that feels isolated from society, and is probably not the type to enlist, join the Peace Core or become a volunteer fire fighter but is more likely to feel the need to escape the life in which he feels marginalized and alone.
Are there exceptions? Probably...as in anything.

[Rick]

I can agree with that. You make a good point.

[Celticwarrior]

I know when I moved up into the middle of nowhere from down in the Detroit Metro Area, people asked what I was going to do up here, like it was some sort of exile into Siberia or something. I told them, with a smile, "Whatever I want, for a change." I love being up in the middle of a huge wilderness area, where you can hunt, fish, snowmobile, ATV, hike, or just watch nature literally right outside your back door. I love being able to go out after work and drive a couple of hours into areas where I can literally walk for hours on trails and never see another human being or sign of civilization. I can CHOOSE the level of 'on the grid' I wish to be and if need be, cutting myself off from it wouldn't hurt too much. I don't have neighbors whining about the forge I have in my backyard or the hammering in the middle of the day. I don't have some idiot from a homeowners association threatening me with legal action if my grass is too high or if they don't like my choice in gardens. I don't have the city telling me how many barn cats I can have or how many vehicles I can park in my own driveway. My well will give me water when every tap in the city runs dry unless citizens fork over a ton of hard earned cash to keep their pipes full. My septic system is well maintained and will continue to take whatever my toilets flush down for a long long time, and no city government will ever bill me for the privilege of getting rid of my sewage. I love brewing my own beer, making my own wine and mead, smoking my own meat, hanging and treating my own hides to make leathers and furs, creating my own iron and steel tools and goods, firing my own pottery, blowing my own glass, weaving and sewing my own clothing, blankets and fabric items, reloading my own ammo, making my own candles, soaps and papers, and working on my own vehicles, canning my own produce, and cooking my own meals on either my electric range, my woodfired cookstove, or my charcoal grills. I have acres of land with gardens, edible landscaping, orchards, vineyards, and hutches for chickens and rabbits. I fill my freezers with game, fowl and fish that I take myself, and my cost of living is pretty cheap while the QUALITY of my life is immeasurably better. Living out of a backpack is great, short term. It tests you and gives you a sense of your own mortality, for better or worse. But I don't need that level of disconnection from 'society' to feel free. Just some forest around my house, and no one giving me grief that shouldn't be in my business in the first place.

[kyratshooter]

That is a fine place to be as long as all your systems meet state and local code requirements.

It does not matter where you are inside the U.S. there is always an agency that can tell you what to do with what you own.

[Celticwarrior]

No matter where you are in the WORLD, someone will always have the authority to tell you what you can and can't do. Learn to live with the fact that you aren't in the 1500's, and there are no new worlds to conquer. Every square foot of the planet is owned by someone, regulated by someone, or under someone's watchful eye. There is nowhere you could run to that would allow you complete autonomy and self-determination. Anyone who tells you different is trying to sell you something. You must make your choices accordingly. Taking out a backpack into the 'wilderness' (owned by someone, whether it is private or public lands) and 'living off the land' (poaching, unless you have paid some government to hunt a CERTAIN number of a CERTAIN species at a CERTAIN time with CERTAIN methods) is hardly 'Freedom' from responsibility and authority. Rather, it moves the burden squarely upon the shoulders of the person undertaking the hike, rather than making it nebulous and fuzzy as to where the buck actually stops. If you think that by putting on the yoke of a BOB backpack and fading into the woods, you are somehow going to shuck the yoke of civilization, of responsibility, and of authority, you are sadly mistaken. From the resources you use in the backcountry to the eventual SAR team that goes out to recover you, dead or alive, from wherever you end up getting hurt or sick or lost, you will have been under some government scrutiny and authority the entire time you are out there. Don't think so? Just explain the string of fish or the gutted deer you just bagged to the Game Warden that comes along and asks you what you think you are doing taking animals without a license or out of season. The courts will explain exactly how far into the system you really are.

[ClayPick]

Maybe they’re just looking for a world where even a chicken can cross the road without its motives being questioned.

[Rick]

And what did you mean by that?

[ClayPick]

It’s what I was told by my son when he was going through a period in his life with a bloated sense of autonomy. He wanted to move to a island by himself. I told him the only place he had left was an island. He got over it. He's got five fishing boats now and owns an island.

[kyratshooter]

Sorry, deleted post.

Don't think I want to start that tright now!

[Rick]

without its motives being questioned.

And what did you mean by that?

Humor is at the plate. Oh, swing and a miss.

[1stimestar]

I don't know anyone in their late teens/early 20s that doesn't look for some sense of adventure at that age. Everyone has their own definition. Some join the military, some take on risky jobs (fire jumper, fishing, etc.) and a small percentage want to head to the wilderness. There's probably some sense of romanticism in their minds as well after reading accounts about Jim Bowie or Jeremiah Johnson or the like.

And don't we WANT our young people to have those high ideals? We WANT them to go seek adventure. We WANT them to seek out the adventure that is the wilderness and the "feeling" of autonomy one can achieve there. I see our job as a community, which is what this message board is, is not to talk them out of it or tell them it can't be done, or that they are idiots and we've heard all this before, but to point out things that they need to think about. As experienced as our collective is, we have a lot of information. Our job is to give them some of it in order to keep them as safe as we can help them be. Then let them go and learn those things that only experience can teach. Overcoming hardships, whether internal or external makes better human beings. Achievement and self satisfaction are good things. These are people who are going to be making my governmental and health care choices when I am too old to make them myself. I want them to KNOW what it is like to go out to the wilderness and survive on the merits of one's own behavior.

[hunter63]

Good post, wise councel.......MF used to say, "Experiance is the best teacher.........", But did qualify it with a "So that's what you have decided....?".....at times.
And it seemed that ment, "maybe re-think?.....Why did he say that?"

It's tough to set them off with out those traing wheels, sometimes, though.

[BENESSE]

And don't we WANT our young people to have those high ideals? We WANT them to go seek adventure. We WANT them to seek out the adventure that is the wilderness and the "feeling" of autonomy one can achieve there. I see our job as a community, which is what this message board is, is not to talk them out of it or tell them it can't be done, or that they are idiots and we've heard all this before, but to point out things that they need to think about. As experienced as our collective is, we have a lot of information. Our job is to give them some of it in order to keep them as safe as we can help them be. Then let them go and learn those things that only experience can teach. Overcoming hardships, whether internal or external makes better human beings. Achievement and self satisfaction are good things. These are people who are going to be making my governmental and health care choices when I am too old to make them myself. I want them to KNOW what it is like to go out to the wilderness and survive on the merits of one's own behavior.

IMHO, that's the job of parents.
I see our job as cautiously and prudently advising because we don't have all the facts.

[Rick]

I don't disagree with you, 1st. There's a difference, however, when someone comes on here and says their goal is to live off grid in the bush and they are researching their options vs. the one that comes on here and wants to do it with only a knife. Not knowing something can't be done has created some very wealthy entrepreneurs because they just went ahead and did it. It's also gotten more than a few killed. We, as a group, also need to be selective on who we assist and who we try to dissuade based on that person's skill, knowledge and goal.

[1stimestar]

I don't disagree with you, 1st. There's a difference, however, when someone comes on here and says their goal is to live off grid in the bush and they are researching their options vs. the one that comes on here and wants to do it with only a knife. Not knowing something can't be done has created some very wealthy entrepreneurs because they just went ahead and did it. It's also gotten more than a few killed. We, as a group, also need to be selective on who we assist and who we try to dissuade based on that person's skill, knowledge and goal.

Heh. Well there IS a difference between young and dumb, and just plain idiotic. :whistling:

[hunter63]

This song goes thru my head many times when I read about wanting to "Take off....." I don't know why/

You have to understand, that George Thorogood is doin' alright.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_3l2Vo1z260

[jhnnymwr75]

Why does the fruit fall off tree? you can get scientific about it, but its easier to just move on to the bigger questions and say 'because'. I guess what i'm saying is, there are to many factors such as gravity, age, and experiences (referring to the tree) to determine why someone ticks the way they do, and why they want to do what they want to.

[doug1980]

I just want peace and quiet. You know the kind of peace and quite you get sitting in a tree stand during deer season. Where you can hear the trees creaking from the wind. Or being at the lake with no one else around listening to the birds sing, and hearing the fish splash in the water. To me that is what appeals to me. What doesn't appeal to me is the hard work and sacrifice that goes along with living there forever. I enjoy turning the thermostat up or down depending on the temperature. I enjoy going to the sink for a drink of water, or a hot shower daily. I also enjoy going to the store to get my food. Am I too dependant on "The System" yeah sure, just like 99.9% of the population. I would rather take precautions and prepare as much as I can and enjoy the "comforts" while I can. What can I say, I'm lazy.

[jcullen24]

So true!

I'm doing well in my job, but there's always the nagging fear of outsourcing.
The wilderness has always been my fantasy of a refuge from the hectic life of fighting againts.
Ralf Waldo emerson, Jack Frost etc.

[hunter63]

Jack Frost?.......haven't heard about him?

[Rick]

You haven't? Sad story. Froze to death nipping on someone's nose.

[kurtis]

Coming out of the blue here (my first post) ... I could throw an opinion into the 'why' people want to do this. I think I might fit into that stereotype of dropping out of society a bit.

There's the philosophical and ideological reasons: Freedom. Freedom to be creative. Freedom to make mistakes. Freedom to learn from those mistakes. Freedom to experiment. Freedom to do what you want (morally/ethically) without the eye of thousands of people judging what you're doing every day.

I have my personal-building reasons: I love to learn. There's a lot of fundamental skills and knowledge that I think are very important. I want to be in a position where I not only have the capability of developing this knowledge; but also to know my time was spent well because the 'hobby' actually went to good use. I have a young son (4 years old) and I want him to know and experience so many more things than he will here in the "suburbs". I can't teach him everything because I don't know everything. But it sounds like a great way for us both to learn and spend some quality time together.

There's some personal/family responsibility feelings I have about becoming self sustainable. Sure, a lot of people look crazy talking about all of this "apocalypse" type stuff. I'm not worried that tomorrow, or the end of this year, or any specific time that we'll have a huge issue where I live (Ohio). But, there will come a time in the future, and I'm guessing around the time my son is becoming of age, that society will change a lot. If nothing else, we'll hit some energy problems and I believe people will have a hard time adjusting to whatever changes come (e.g. not being able to drive because of gas costs). Why not prepare (mentally and by life-style) ahead of time so that *if* this happens, you'll be more likely not to suffer? Not that this is my sole reason for trying to "get out" ... but to me it's a logical plan since there's very little to lose and potentially a whole lot to gain.

I've got a gut feeling that moving out to the country and becoming self-sustainable has a lot of great family and health benefits. For one, I can work at my own pace; I'm not saying work will be easier (in fact, I'll have to work harder) but for the most part, with proper planning, it'll be at my own pace. A lot of the things I imagine having to do on a regular basis are things I can do with my son. I've never paid for Cable TV but I can say that we've spent more than our fair share of time staring at screens, whether it's watching movies or playing video games, and that's something that would do us good to do without. If we can grow a decent portion of our own food, we'll eat better. If we can learn how to create our own goods that we need (such as cleaning supplies, candles for light, furniture, etc...) then we'll save money and again will probably be healthier. In general, the whole lifestyle that goes along with living self-sustainably (spelling?) is, in my opinion, a whole lot healthier and more rewarding than how we live now.

Aside from all of these reasons I've come up in my head for the past few years on "if we had land in the country we could do this...", I think the biggest thing drawing me in is some internal feeling. Watching films like 'Alone in the Wilderness' do have some romanticized feeling they bring out. I don't know why but it seems like a really peaceful way of life that I've only been able to experience over the years while camping and what-not.

Sure, maybe it's a matter of "the grass is greener on the other side" kinda thing -- both a "running from" and a "running to" situation. I personally don't plan on going about it irresponsibly, especially with a young child depending on me. Whether or not it's the right thing to do, in my mind, is a matter of figuring out a way to do it and giving it a shot. If nothing else, we can always come back and it'd be great to prove to myself what I can do with my own two hands.

I imagine many other people who seem out of place running to this lifestyle, which is the generalization I think is made here, might have their eyes set on it for some of the same reasons. Just some food for thought...

[Rick]

Why can't you do all those things with your son now? Turn off the TV and plant some veggies even if it is a container tomato plant on the balcony of your apartment. If you own a home then put in a small garden. What keeps you from making your own things now? Look through the forum. Lot's of folks dehydrate, can, make their own leather goods, knives, clothing, candles, etc. and living in the country doesn't enable them. Their own desire enables them. You CAN teach your son no matter where you live.

[kyratshooter]

When I met and married my wife at age 53 I moved from my second rural retreat into the suburbia of a large metro area. I also moved north into a different climate zone. I spent the first 4 months covered in snow hiding in the basement organizing a workshop.

The new wife had been a hard working single mom alone for 16 years and just keeping the place clean/trimmed was her priority.

When spring came so did a container garden. I spent a lot of time on the deck in the back of the house taking stock of the 1/4 acre yard and mid summer I started a terraced herb garden in the back corner of the lot.

The tomatoes, peppers and herbs were such a hit she suggested veggies in the ground next year and each spring the garden gained a few feet with fruit trees as part of the new landscaping.

Lots of ice storms, real life blizzards, tornadoes and one inland hurricane latter and I had the whole neighborhood on gen-power with food stocks in reserve. After the second hunting season, with venison given to the close and trusted, I had suburbanites asking about "the right gun" for deer. It was not long before extra firewood appeared in back yards, closets were turned into pantries and folks wwere gathering to stand in the snow and laugh over those fools that did not realize winter came every year!

The stepsons returned from their Marine Corps duties, decided I was taking care of Mom alright and we became a close family with new grandchildren arriving peridocially. On my advisement they bought homes in simirural settings and on their own began gardening and landscaping for food and security. I realized I was being "hit up for reloads" on a regular basis and their firearms were beginning to match the free ammo choices my reloading offered.

There was actually a bit of security in knowing my family and neighbors valued my opinions and trusted my judgement in crisis. I also enjoyed the full poured concrete and steel reinforced basement of that place, even if it was in suburbia.

The wife passed away suddenly and the house in suburbia was gone. I am back in the rural setting, building retreat #3, and enjoying that too. However, heavy construction and homesteading is not as easy at 60 as it was at 30 or 45. Some old timers can do it, but some of us have to work around bad backs, bad hearts and other limiting factors. I now use machines for what used to be doen with hand tools. Life goes on.

There is no reason that even an apaprtment dweller can not make use of the small space allowed in home and on balcony to maintain some form of preperation, training and food production, even if those things are limited. For some of us it is a part of life and part of our heritage that can not be ignored or swept away.

I moved into this place and started the tearout and remodeling and had a hay bale garden the first summer, Veggies went into the ground year two and each season there is an added expiriment. Sadly, this year's effort has failed, but next year I know what I will NOT do, and Krogers is still down the road past all the local veggie stands and little old ladies selling eggs.

You make do with what you have. If you wait until the perfect situation arrives the learning curve is very steep, failure is always a single step away and everyone around you is always looking over your shoulder and asking "Are you sure you know what you are doing?".

I would much rather hear something on the order of, "You should have seen what he could grow in a pot on the balcony, imagine what we can get out of a real garden!"

[hunter63]

Kurtis, first let me say, Hey, and Welcome.
What you are describing has been called in the past, desire to be a "homesteader".....these days, it seems the term "Survivalist" is the cool term...I guess.

Nothing new about this feeling and desire to, as we said back in the '70 &'80's, ....Get back to the land, Do for your self, Do your own thing, Live lightly on Mother Earth.....pick your era, flag, slogan, way of life.....I believe it is a universal desire for part of the population......most likely dating back to the beginning of civilization.

Before civilization, they were already doing it..... so didn't have to worry about about "going back to it".....But I digress....

Being involved in our own(DW and family), "Homesteading" lifestyle..... of getting your land, growing, learning, trying, doing, living, for a long time, .....it is worth the effort....we did ours slowly, pay as you go, responsibly for us and our children......but had fun with this type of life style.

Remember its a mind set, not a location........

Why not stop oiver at introductions and tell us a little about your self.
http://www.wilderness-survival.net/forums/showthread.php?7813-Posting-Your-Introduction

[oldsoldier]

You guys are adding a judgement to the issue. My goal was not to judge, but to understand the motivation.

I think maybe it's in part due to media influence...................... Maybe??....................... I mean look at some of the T.V. Shows at least the classic one's anyway, like grizzly Adam's ( remember him?) Or daniel Boone, Davy crockett and such. Maybe it's a "romantic notion" of the pleasure of a "simple lifestyle" of not having to punch a time clock or have a boss looking over your shoulder mentality they have...... Who know's? As most of you know I'm a truck driver, I grew up with T.V. shows like Movin' on, B.J. and the bear, Movies like convoy and such that painted a romantic if you will picture of the "freedom of the open road" That led me to become at that time a long haul trucker, I mean I was single and getting paid to travel seemed cool. The movies however didn't really show the hard work involved in the job, bad weather, bad food, bad destinations and such.
Maybe..... that's what motivates "them" to want to do it? I mean who wouldn't want to run around in the wood's wearing buckskins, having to do nothing other than ' Huntin' fishin' and trappin' and NOt having to do any real work?

Growing up in the country was the best ( and hardest working) times of my like I guess that in those memories I am one of "them" who would love to head for the hill's and live a 100% self sufficent, off grid lifestyle. BUT I know it's not only un realistic in todays world but financially and physically ( labor wise) not such a good idea. So my best bet is "the place" with a small home and partial self sufficency for the wife and I as soonas we can.

Sigh.........................and the wife looks cute in abuckskin dress and barefoot too......................

[hunter63]

.........................................BUT I know it's not only un realistic in todays world but financially and physically ( labor wise) not such a good idea. So my best bet is "the place" with a small home and partial self sufficency for the wife and I as soonas we can.

Sigh.........................and the wife looks cute in abuckskin dress and barefoot too......................

Well said, and agree.......

[kurtis]

Kurtis, first let me say, Hey, and Welcome.
What you are describing has been called in the past, desire to be a "homesteader".....these days, it seems the term "Survivalist" is the cool term...I guess.

Nothing new about this feeling and desire to, as we said back in the '70 &'80's, ....Get back to the land, Do for your self, Do your own thing, Live lightly on Mother Earth.....pick your era, flag, slogan, way of life.....I believe it is a universal desire for part of the population......most likely dating back to the beginning of civilization.

Before civilization, they were already doing it..... so didn't have to worry about about "going back to it".....But I digress....

Being involved in our own(DW and family), "Homesteading" lifestyle..... of getting your land, growing, learning, trying, doing, living, for a long time, .....it is worth the effort....we did ours slowly, pay as you go, responsibly for us and our children......but had fun with this type of life style.

Remember its a mind set, not a location........

Why not stop oiver at introductions and tell us a little about your self.
http://www.wilderness-survival.net/forums/showthread.php?7813-Posting-Your-Introduction

Thanks Hunter! I'll be sure to drop in and post a bit about myself.

And yep, I'd definitely look at it more as a homesteader as opposed to survivalist. The big difference, in my mind, being that I've got more than a "knife and backpack". We actually are trying to move in the right direction, mentally, where we live. The big problem with the location aspect is the amount of land we have available, what we're allowed to do with the land (practically nothing), and the extreme cost of taxes here. Even if we paid off a house in this area, I'd still have to come up with $2,500/year+ until the day I die just to pay for a very small chunk of land. Of course, like you implied, there's plenty of things we can do in the mean time!

[MiddleWolf]

I've always wondered about the paradox of so many wanting to "escape" to the wilderness. If the numbers are sufficient, it's no longer the wilderness. Statton Island was once considered wilderness.

[Rick]

I'm not at all certain there is much difference between those that want to escape to the wilderness and those that want to prep for the coming economic collapse. Both go into it with relatively little knowledge or understanding and neither appear to be concerned about those things that are statistically more threatening like a house fire, car wreck or severe weather. It would do this old heart good for just one person to sign on and say, "I'm new and want to prepare because I've read that falls in the home are a leading cause of injury." (Deep sigh)

[BENESSE]

I'm new and want to prepare because I've read that falls in the home are a leading cause of injury because people carry the wrong kind of knife around their necks and get stabbed when they slip.

So what's the best EDC knife?

[hunter63]

What's a EDC knife?.....
I most likely know or knew, but I forget.

[Rick]

I think I just had heart palpitations. Thanks...

[kyratshooter]

I am sick of dealing with all this dangerous technology. I got caught in the automatic doors at Kroger the other day and that was the last straw!

I want to run away to the wilderness where it is safe!

Does anyone know where I can get some free land near clean streams, with abundant game, no game wardens and a garden already planted?

It should be close enough to town for me to get pizza delivered and catch a buss to the mall, but not where I would have to ever meet another human unless she was a Victoria Secret babe who had gone blind.

If the land is not free it should at least be cheap so I can buy it with my insurance settlement from Kroger.

Rick, if you want to teach home safty an accedent prevention why log into a wilderness survival and disaster prep forum in the first place? There are dozens of forums that specialize in home safty, shelf building, lawn care and dweebchat.

[Rick]

Because I'm trying to broaden your horizons. Yes, it is difficult but I like the challenge. I could have said, "falls that occur in the wilderness," but I wanted to introduce you to new ideas. Get you to think out of the box. Or out of your boxers if the circulation is cut off.

[Rick]

I almost forgot....Bazinga!