Check out my new toy!

[Phaedrus]

WOOT! After researching and taking notes for six months I finally pulled the trigger on a new vacuum sealer. And NOOOOOO, it ain't no foodsaver! As you all probably know I'm a chef by trade and an all-around kitchen geek. Clamp style sealers are very inexpensive and do a good job on many things but don't work so well to seal liquids. And since I do a lot of sous vide cooking I like to be able to cook in a liquid. This requires a chamber vacuum sealer.

Enter the VacMaster VP215! It's a chamber vac with a rotary oil pump. It pulls almost 30" of vacuum! Here's a few pics!

http://img688.imageshack.us/img688/7572/vacmastervp215.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/688/vacmastervp215.jpg/)

http://img846.imageshack.us/img846/6783/vacmastervp2152.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/846/vacmastervp2152.jpg/)


Here's one of the main reasons I bought it over other similar machines: The ability to seal retort pouches!

http://img535.imageshack.us/img535/5420/vacmastervp2153retort.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/535/vacmastervp2153retort.jpg/)


You may think you don't know what a "retort pouch" is, but you may have one in your pantry right now. They're the pouches you buy your tuna in. They were developed for the military for MREs.

With this machine I can now easily seal liquids like chili, marinara sauce, gravy, soup, etc. And the retort pouches will let me can stuff in "flexible cans" that are just like a Ball Jar but not breakable.

Now, that might be interesting to you here's the REAL DEAL reason to have this for survival stuff:

http://img802.imageshack.us/img802/4859/vacmastervp2154retort.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/802/vacmastervp2154retort.jpg/)

http://img861.imageshack.us/img861/3508/vacmastervp2155retort.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/861/vacmastervp2155retort.jpg/)


This is a couple shots of the first retort pouches I sealed- filled with fire gear! Again, these are very, very thick pouches constructed with three layers, the middle being made of mylar. These don't break, rupture or leak easily. The VP215 has a double-wire seal bar, creating two seals to ensure the integrity of the pouch.

Two the pouches I sealed contain four Weber grill lighter tables each. Those of us who've used the Weber and WetFire products have concluded that if they're not identical then at least the difference isn't worth talking about. One fatal flaw of both products is that exposure to air kills them quickly (between 1 week and 1 month, depending on conditions). The flimsy packaging of WetFire can be a real problem if you rely on it.

But a retort pouch isn't at all flimsy. They were designed to keep food edible for years in every conceivable climate and situation. I will track these to verify but you've gotta see them to believe them! They're very thick and really tough.

The bonus- my mom has been canning since she was a little girl, almost 60 years. I can use a pressure canner to make my own homemade MREs, shelf stable but with recognizable food in them! :grin: I can control the sodium and additives, creating what I want to eat...did I mention I'm a chef and science geek? :grin:

Retort pouches are available with capacities from 2 oz to 16 oz, so you have a lot of options for using them.

I'll keep you all posted as I explore the possibilities of this machine.

Anyhoo, just though you guys might dig this. It was expensive, almost a $1,000 USD, but well worth it to me.

[crashdive123]

Looks like a really versatile piece of equipment. Pretty cool.

[Rick]

That's a pretty slick machine. Where do you purchase your retort pouches?

[Phaedrus]

I ordered them along with the machine from here. (http://www.qualitymatters.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=QMVP-215C&Show=TechSpecs) There are other sources but these have worked well in my initial tests. I have some 2 oz retorts on the way; they should be great for tinder, matches, meds, etc.

[Rick]

That's wild. You have to change the oil every 3,000 miles.......or something like that. Thanks for the link.

[Phaedrus]

Hahaha! Yeah, there's an oil plug on the bottom just like a '70 Chevy! But I'm loving the machine so far.

[finallyME]

Great buy, and for under 1K. I spec'ed one out for my work and it was around $2K. But, I had different parameters than you were looking for.
One thing to clarify, the retort pouches don't have Mylar in the middle. But, they are 3 layer. The inner layer (the layer that makes the seal) is Polyethylene. The middle layer is aluminum, and the outer layer is usually PET (otherwise known as Mylar, or polyester). The inside is PE because it is really easy to seal, and it is fairly resistant to most chemicals. Almost all 5 gallon plastic buckets are made from HDPE (a form of PE). It is easy to seal because it has a low melting temperature. The aluminum is there for air permeability. Believe it or not, air can generally pass through most plastics, given enough time. Not all aluminum coatings are the same, and some are there for looks (literally) and are still gas permeable. The thicker the aluminum coating, the less gas permeable. The PET is to protect the aluminum. Usually the aluminum is just sprayed on, and you can easily scratch it off, which defeats the gas barrier. The PET is also very tear resistant. The reason why PET and not other plastics is because of its melting temperature (and cost). So, when you apply the heat seal, the inner PE melts, and not the outer PET. Sorry, that was probably too much information. Incidentally, you can buy this in sheets and make whatever size bag you want.
And, one more thing just for kicks and giggles. Your photo shows the thickness as 5.4 mils. Just in case anyone cares, this is a measurement that the industry uses for thickness of films. It is not a millimeter. 1 mil is equal to .001 inches. I didn't learn this in school and it confused the heck out of me the first few weeks in my new job. Especially when people would use the terms "thousandths" and "mils" interchangeably. Now, I do the same, just to confuse the new guys. :)

[Phaedrus]

Thanks! I got to typing too fast and whiffed on the order of the laminates. And I use the common term of "mils" because, while it's commonly misunderstood, it's widely misunderstood in the same way!:lol:

You make some excellent points, and thanks for clarifying some stuff I missed.

[finallyME]

I don't think you missed anything. I just wanted to add a bunch of information that wasn't really useful for the sole reason of making me look smart. Your review was excellent.

[BENESSE]

How long will the food last sealed this way?

[Phaedrus]

I'd love to pick your brain down the road! Often I wonder which things I can store together, and I've long understood that things most people think are barriers are actually quite permiable. Your input would greatly inform the way I package stuff.

[Phaedrus]

Will the food sealed this way last as long as MH? (5yrs)

It can, but only if you process it with a pressure canner. Retort pouches are flexible cans; if you want to have shelf stable items you must treat them as cans.

[finallyME]

Mountain House uses the same type of packaging. So, if you get freeze dried food and throw in an oxygen absorber with this same packaging, you will be making your own custom Mountain House with the same storage limits.

[finallyME]

I'd love to pick your brain down the road! Often I wonder which things I can store together, and I've long understood that things most people think are barriers are actually quite permiable. Your input would greatly inform the way I package stuff.


When my boss retired, he gave me one of his books entitled "Permeability and Other Film Properties".

[hunter63]

Very cool, looks like it would be a valuable tool....

[finallyME]

How long will the food last sealed this way?

That depends on the food and method of preparation. When you compare three layer metalized film bags with other methods of sealing, it is one of the best. Let's look at the other methods:

Metal can- this generally has a plastic liner. Because of the thick metal, its gas permeation is pretty close to zero (with a good seal). I don't think you can pull a vacuum on it (haven't look at it yet). It is a pretty robust, vermin proof container. But, it is on the heavy side.

Plastic bucket- because it is plastic, plastic is touching your food. HDPE doesn't contain BPA, so that isn't a concern. Although the plastic is gas permeable, the thickness greatly reduces this. It will last longer in a wet environment than the metal can. The plastic will degrade over time, but if you don't put it in direct sunlight, it will take a really long time.

Glass jar- This option is the best for gas permeation and no plastics touching the food. However, light can degrade the food inside. You can vacuum pack them also. The glass is vermin proof, but not earthquake proof. You can mitigate this risk with proper storage, however.

Three layer metalized bags- These are lighter and can be made whatever size you want. They are also easy to seal and vacuum seal. They don't break when you drop them, but animals can chew through them. Also, if you put food in them that has hard edges, the edges can puncture through. You can put these in other containers to increase the gas barrier (this is done mostly in plastic buckets).

I consider these 4 methods the best ways to store food, and done properly there isn't much difference between them as far as food spoilage.

[Wildthang]

That is one cool machine! With the air being pulled out of the bag, it looks like things would last a long time sealed that way,...............even Rick:eek2:

[jake abraham]

that is one cool machine

[Skinner]

So How Long Will it take to Stablize a 2X2X12 Block of Wood

[Phaedrus]

You've got me on that one! I've purchased stabilized wood but I don't know how it's made.

[pete lynch]

I'm assuming these retort bags wont work with a Food Saver-type vacuum sealer? So you must dish out for a commercial-type sealer like the one shown in the OP?

[finallyME]

I'm assuming these retort bags wont work with a Food Saver-type vacuum sealer? So you must dish out for a commercial-type sealer like the one shown in the OP?

I am not sure, I haven't tried it yet. My initial response is that it will. It is sealing the same type of plastic. But, I have read on other websites that people are having a hard time with the heat seal. They say that the heat sealer on the food saver isn't strong enough. It is really hard for me to believe that. I will have to try it myself before I believe it.

[Phaedrus]

It might seal them but probably not. They're very thick with a metalized layer. And if it can seal them it can't vac the air out. The Foodsaver needs channel bags with grooves running vertically thru the bag to let the air out. Otherwise, just like trying to drink a thick shake thru a thin soda straw, the bags collapse and won't let the air escape. To evac the air from them you need a chamber vac (or perhaps a nozzle vac device).

[finallyME]

It might seal them but probably not. They're very thick with a metalized layer. And if it can seal them it can't vac the air out. The Foodsaver needs channel bags with grooves running vertically thru the bag to let the air out. Otherwise, just like trying to drink a thick shake thru a thin soda straw, the bags collapse and won't let the air escape. To evac the air from them you need a chamber vac (or perhaps a nozzle vac device).

I have solved that problem in the past by cutting the channel layer out of a food saver bag and inserting it into the bag without it.

[Phaedrus]

I have solved that problem in the past by cutting the channel layer out of a food saver bag and inserting it into the bag without it.

I saw a couple of workarounds like that on YouTube. I'm curious to see if you can get the bags to seal. If nothing else, if they sealed even temporarily you could reinforce the seal with a dedicated stand-alone sealer.

I'd be willing to send you a few of the 7 mil two ounce retort pouches if you want to try it without buying a whole pack of 125.

[finallyME]

Well, I learned something today. It actually started yesterday, when I was talking with a co-worker about one of the materials he is using to seal a product. Anyways, he said the inner layer was Polypropylene. I was surprised, cuz I thought it was Polyethylene. Anyways, so I did a search for "retort" bags, and low and behold, they use PP for the sealing layer. Check out this wiki article.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retort_pouch
Anyways, that explains why I read on some forms that people can't seal them with their standard vacuum sealer heat sealer. Most clear vacuum bags are polyethylene or PE with a nylon outer layer. PE melts at a lower temp than PP, so if they are set for PE, then they wouldn't be hot enough for PP. Anyways, there are metalized PE bags, and they are very common. But a "retort" bag isn't PE. My guess, and this is purely a guess based on observation, is that if the bag is 4 mils or less, then it is probably a PE bag. If it is more than 5 mils, than it is probably a retort. Retort pouches are 4 layers thick, which is why they are thicker.

I am pretty much always right, except for when I am wrong.

[finallyME]

I saw a couple of workarounds like that on YouTube. I'm curious to see if you can get the bags to seal. If nothing else, if they sealed even temporarily you could reinforce the seal with a dedicated stand-alone sealer.

I'd be willing to send you a few of the 7 mil two ounce retort pouches if you want to try it without buying a whole pack of 125.

Capri-sun uses retort packaging for their drinks. Also tuna packets are retort, so I can just buy some of those and then clean them out and try and vacuum seal them.

[Phaedrus]

I'm eager to see how that works. Just don't put Capri Sun in a tuna pouch!:eek2: