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Beo
02-15-2008, 10:05 AM
Alot has been asked and said on here about what shotgun would be best, what rifle is best, and what loads most people would use in the wilds for a bush or brush gun.
So after being a Range Instructor in the Army for 3 years (yeah you military guys know me as the one hollering on the line and then you walking up and saying NO BRASS NO AMMO in a loud booming voice), and curently being a range instructor for my department, and teaching hunting/shooting skills at my gun club here is what I say on these thoughts.
Advances in technology and trends of market whimsy have done nothing to stifle the discourse about which rifle "bucks the brush" better. Hunters of the old school say that a heavy, fat, blunt-nosed bullet traveling at low to moderate velocity will plow through brush with less deflection. The "enlightened" modern thinkers say that the long, thin bullet with a high rate of rotational speed will perform better because the gyroscopic effect of the rotation will keep it on course or aid it in returning to a stable course after a disturbance. Then there is the matter of bullet construction. Certainly, a low-velocity bullet will need to be of a softer construction than a premium bullet designed for magnum-type impact velocities. It follows that the softer bullet will deform more easily than the tougher "modern" bullet and destabilize in flight. That is certainly true if the velocities are the same, but the very natures of the bullets dictate that the tougher bullet will be traveling at a higher velocity. What effect will that create?
Finally, there is the argument that in a given caliber, a round-nosed or flat-nosed bullet is better for shooting through brush than a pointed bullet. Nobody seems to know why, but a lot of hunters will argue the point passionately.
I have heard arguments on the extremes of both sides. A Saskatchewan outfitter once told me that his .35 Whelen would mow down the thick second-growth brush that dominates the east side of the province like a "weed whacker through your front lawn." On the other hand, a manufacturer of a gun-related product told me during a SHOT Show that if a bullet traveling over 3,500 fps even comes close to a tree branch, without necessarily hitting it, the pneumatic pressure of the air displaced by the bullet compressing against the tree branch will cause the bullet to fly off course and often even disintegrate in flight.
So who can you believe?
Testing The Theory
I think that it is accepted that any bullet will deflect in flight if it hits brush. My grandfather's response to this was, "If you can see the animal well enough to shoot at it, then there is a hole big enough to fit a bullet through without hitting the brush." Good advice, but it still doesn't answer the question of bullet deflection.
To find out for myself, I decided to shoot several rifles through brush under controlled conditions and record the results. Because using actual brush provided inconsistent results, I turned to hardwood dowels to simulate brush.
I drilled holes in a couple of two-by-fours to hold the 1-foot dowels. The holes were carefully spaced with 1/8-inch between them to ensure that no bullet could slip between without hitting something.
Because the target backstop on our range is higher than the bench inside the shooting house, I constructed a frame to hold the "brush" high enough to approximately center the groups on the plywood backstop. A target was hung between cross-members on the front of the frame. This was placed at a measured 10 yards in front of the backstop, which was 100 yards from a shooting house. One foot behind the target was a barrier of 3/8-inch dowels. This was designed to be about twice as wide as the front barrier so that it would catch any deflected bullets.
I covered the backstop with white paper, and shooters fired three shots at that target with each gun without the "brush" in place to establish a center of impact on the backstop. Unless noted, we then fired five shots through the "brush" from each rifle. After each shot, we replaced the dowels and marked the resulting hit on the backstop. This ensured consistency in the "brush" encountered by all bullets.
All shots were fired from a bench rest, and caution was taken to make sure that they were carefully aimed. However, since I was recording the differences in group sizes before and after hitting the brush and the deviation from the center of impact, exacting accuracy was not necessarily important. All rifles showed acceptable hunting accuracy with the ammo selected, but the results are not to be interpreted as the "best" that rifle can shoot.
Analyzing The Results
The results are recorded in the accompanying chart, but I will note some key points. Long, pointed bullets tended to keyhole (turn sideways), particularly when they hit the first dowels a glancing blow that put them between two dowels. Often, the second barrier would have two or even three dowels cut off, indicating that the bullet was traveling sideways.
Round- or flat-nosed bullets tended to track better and showed less tendency to keyhole. The old-timers who liked big, slow bullets were on to something. The .35 Rem., .44 Rem. Mag. (discounting one flyer) and .45-70 showed the lowest percentage change in group size.
To spoil the theory, the .270 Win. showed no change in group size if you discount the one flyer.
Check out the .308 Win.! It actually showed a smaller group size after hitting the "brush." All calibers showed evidence of losing stability or deforming.
In summary, you would be ill-advised to intentionally take any shot through brush at a deer. Every bullet that hits brush, regardless of caliber or design, will be affected, and it is impossible to predict reliably what that affect will be. While one caliber might do "better" than another, they all had the potential for extreme flyers. If that flyer happens to be the shot you fired at an animal, the results could be disastrous. Nothing's worse than making a poor hit on a magnificent game animal.

Beo
02-15-2008, 10:12 AM
The law of gravity dictates that a bullet will begin to drop toward the earth from the moment it leaves the rifle barrel. The reason that some rifles shoot “flatter” than others is simply because their bullets travel faster and are able to cover more distance in a given amount of time. The bullets still drop to the earth at a rate of acceleration of 32 fps, but they simply cover more ground than slower bullets before dropping a given distance. It is necessary to elevate the rifle’s bore slightly above the line of sight so that, when firing, the bullet’s path rises on a curve that has it crossing the line of sight twice. Because the bullet begins dropping as soon as it is free from the constraints of the rifle, if it were simply fired with the bore of the rifle pointed at the target, it would hit below the target every time. The line of sight is a straight line from the sights to the target. Vision is not subject to gravity, so your eye and the bullet take different paths to the target. While your eye’s path is as straight as a laser, the bullet’s path will be an arch to compensate for the effects of gravity.
The Bullet’s Path
The first time the bullet crosses your line of sight will be close to the rifle. The exact distance will depend on several factors, such as the height of the sights or scope above the bore, the distance to your zeroed point of impact and the relative flatness of the bullet’s trajectory. However, this distance is usually somewhere around 25 to 50 yards. The next time the bullet crosses your line of sight will be at the distance you have selected to zero your rifle for. At any point in the bullet’s path other than these two, the bullet will be above or below your line of sight. Because a slower bullet takes longer to get to a given distant point, it must arch higher above the line of sight than a bullet that is traveling much faster. Let’s take an extreme example and compare the .45-70 Gov. and the .300 Rem. Ultra Mag., both sighted for 200-yard zero (see graphs).
The mid-range trajectory is the apex of the bullet’s arch, or the highest point that the bullet will be above the line of sight during its flight. With the .300 Rem. Ultra Mag. and a 200-yard zero, the mid-range trajectory of the bullet occurs at about 120 yards and is only 1.17 inches. The mid-range trajectory for the .45-70 Gov. with a 400-grain bullet and a 200-yard zero is 13.37 inches and occurs at 110 yards. Total bullet drop at 200 yards for the .300 Rem. Ultra Mag. is 6.99 inches. That is, if the bullet were fired perfectly level, it would have dropped 6.99 inches by the time it reached the 200-yard mark.
Total 200-yard drop for the .45-70 Gov. is 51.23 inches. The difference is that the .300 Rem. Ultra Mag. has a muzzle velocity of 3,300 fps and uses a streamlined bullet. It takes the bullet only .19467 seconds in flight to reach 200 yards and the bullet is still traveling at 2,881 fps at that distance. The .45-70 Gov. uses a bullet that is much less streamlined, so it loses velocity much quicker and starts out at a much slower 1,300 fps. The .45-70 Gov. bullet crosses the 200-yard mark with a time in flight of .53846 seconds and with 991 fps of velocity remaining.
Simply put, any bullet must arch in its path to the target relative to the line of sight. The faster the bullet gets to the target, the flatter that arch or trajectory will be.
Types Of Ballistics
The three common types of ballistics often referred to by shooters can be a little confusing. But it’s really very simple.
Internal Ballistics. This is what happens inside the gun. It refers to the powder burning, pressure, the bullet’s path down the barrel, etc.
External Ballistics. This is what happens during the bullet’s flight through the air. It deals with trajectory, velocity, energy, etc.
Terminal Ballistics. This is what happens after the bullet has hit the target. It’s the study of things such as expansion, weight retention, penetration, etc.
Look Out Below
Remember that your line of sight is different from the bullet’s path. The bullet is traveling along a line that’s somewhat lower than what you are seeing for the first several yards. The higher the scope is above the bore, the more pronounced this difference between the line of sight and bullet path becomes. Make sure you have plenty of clearance for the bullet. It’s easy to overlook a close obstacle, because you are concentrating on the distant target and not what’s up close. Also, things that are close are usually blurry in the scope, or not even in the field of view.
The best illustration of this was when I was hunting groundhogs in Dayton Ohio with some buddies who I suppose should remain nameless. I was sitting in a Jeep, spotting with binoculars for a shooter who had a sandbag on the hood of another vehicle. He shot five times, but I never saw a bullet strike. I do remember remarking to a friend sitting in the driver’s seat of my Jeep that the rifle sounded funny. The ricochet sound was coming too soon after the shot.
The shooter finally gave up and in frustration said, “Bring your rifle over here and see if you can hit anything.”

Beo
02-15-2008, 10:27 AM
Shooting In Wind
The wind’s effect on a bullet’s flight has been a subject of heated discourse for as long as shooters have been trying to hit targets at long distances. We have developed charts and computer programs in attempts to make predictions, but at best, they are only a guideline. All the mathematical theorists from Einstein to my SWAT Sniper friend Rick can’t predict exactly what a bullet will do when it is fired through a real-world moving air mass.
However, the computer programs and ballistic tables are useful in teaching you the wind’s effects, and it is hardly a waste of time to study them. For example, the accompanying info will give you some idea of the difference of wind direction on a bullet’s path. It will also help to illustrate the degree of wind deflection on differing bullets and velocities. But the flaw in this info is that the predictions are built on prime conditions and assume a constant force and direction of wind.
Looking at Real-World Variables
Things are different in the atmosphere we shoot through. Winds gust and wane with currents and flows affected by terrain, vegetation and a million other factors. While it may be blowing one speed where you are, your bullet can travel through wind that is moving several different speeds before it reaches a distant target. The same goes with wind direction-over a given distance it can curl around, double back, eddy, switch and change its attitude more times than a six-year-old with a sugar buzz. If there is one constant in a wind’s influence on a bullet, it is the inconsistency.
The effect, as predicted in the charts and computer programs, is based on the velocity and ballistic coefficient of the bullet, which determines the time of flight, or the amount of time the wind has to act on the bullet. The more time in flight, the more the wind will blow it off course. Other factors include the bullet’s size and shape, which dictate the amount of area available for the wind to blow against. The bullet’s weight is also important because it is easier to push around a light object than it is a heavy one. Whom would you rather wrestle, Hulk Hogan or Bill Gates? Same principle.
Wind direction is yet another factor. A 90-degree side wind will blow against the full profile of the bullet, but any angle that is different will be acting on a differing percentage of the bullet’s surface. A full head or tail wind will have either the point or the base of the bullet to blow against, which affects retained velocity and, consequently, bullet drop. For example, a .44 Rem. Mag. 240-grain bullet with a 20 mph tailwind will have almost 100 fps more retained velocity at 500 yards than the same bullet with a 20 mph headwind. This will change the bullet path even though there is no theoretical wind drift and the difference in drop is almost 45 inches. Of course, this is an extreme example, and nobody really considers the .44 Rem. Mag. a 500-yard cartridge, but every bullet from any cartridge will be affected in some way.
Now suppose the wind is gusting from a 45-degree angle, or 20 degrees or perhaps 10 degrees. Maybe it will be from all three before the bullet makes it from your gun to the target. How much will that affect the lateral wind drift? How about the bullet drop?
I don’t have a clue.
Neither does anybody else, not with all the variables.
Consider Your Bullet, Too
A bullet’s energy would seem to play a role as well, and the more energy it has, the better able it is to counteract the effect of the wind. This was illustrated to me while I was hunting groundhogs in Dayton Ohio with Dave Huffman a long time hunting and shooting partner.
The groundhogs were getting spooky, and our average shooting distance was growing at about the same time the wind started to really pick up. The bullets from our .223 Remingtons were being blown 30 inches or more at 400 yards. The gusting winds made predicting the shots tough, and the points of impact were very erratic. Dave broke out his custom .243 Ackley Improved, and with its heavier 80-grain bullets, the effect of the wind was not only much less pronounced, but a lot more consistent and easier to predict. I was spotting for him, and I was amazed at the difference in the amount of wind deflection and in the consistency of that deflection between the .243’s 80-grain bullets and the 50-grain bullets we had been using in the .223 Rem.
A computer couldn't predict this, and if I hadn’t seen it myself, I would not have believed it. A lot of groundhogs who also weren’t true believers learned the same lesson that day.
An Art In Itself
Shooting in the wind is far more of an art than a science, and the only real way to learn about reading the wind is to get out and shoot in it. A couple of days in a large groundhog infested field will teach you more than all the theoretical computer programs or printed ballistic tables in the world. If there is a pronounced lack of groundhogs where you are, simply find a windy place with some good distance and shoot at rocks, clay pigeons, plastic soda bottles full of water or even paper targets, and do it with a variety of firearms. Have a pal watch your hits through a spotting scope and try to evaluate each shot. After a few thousand rounds or so, you may finally start to get a handle on reading wind.

Beo
02-15-2008, 10:31 AM
Even though different cartridges may take the same bullets, not all the cartridges will extract the same bullet performance. You simply can’t expect a bullet to act the same way from a .308 Win. as it does from a .30-378 Wthby. Mag. It may be traveling nearly 1,000 fps faster from the big gun, and that changes things radically.
A good example of this is the old Nosler Ballistic Tip bullets. For a long time, many hunters thought they were too "soft" and didn’t like them for big game hunting because they tended to come apart and not exit the animal. However, when used at the lower velocities of single-shot handguns, they performed much differently, acting like a good expansion-controlled big game bullet and penetrating very well. (Nosler has since changed the Ballistic Tip design to "toughen" it up a little, and now many of the rifle shooters who didn’t like it before are embracing the Ballistic Tip as a great, but still relatively soft big game bullet.) Generally speaking and with all else being equal, the larger the capacity of the case, the heavier the bullet you should use. For example, when hunting deer, a 140-grain bullet is a good choice for the 7mm-08 Rem., but a 160-grain may be far better for the 7mm Rem. Mag. Usually, the heavier the bullet within a given diameter, the tougher it is because the manufacturers expect that the heavier bullets will be used for bigger game and from bigger cases. At magnum impact velocities, the 160-grain may perform similarly to the 140-grain at the lower 7mm-08 impact velocity.
Smaller cases simply don’t have the powder capacity to utilize heavy bullets well. For example, the 200-grain is an excellent weight for the .300 magnums, but trying to use it in a .308 will result in disappointment. You simply cannot push it fast enough for good performance. On the other hand, the 150-grain is a great bullet in the .308 Win. for deer-sized game, but many 150-grain bullets will come apart on impact from a .300 Wthby. Mag., thus wasting meat and failing to penetrate.
It is always best to match the cartridge to both the game being hunted and the expected shooting distances, and then match the bullet to all three. This, of course, applies to bullet design as well as weight.

Beo
02-15-2008, 10:41 AM
Whether you plink cans or pursue critters, there’s never been a better time to buy a new rimfire rifle.
Several years ago, my hunting partner and I responded to a request for assistance from a farmer friend: “My pasture is completely over-run with gophers, and I hate to use poison. Will you guys thin them out for me?”
Every hunter knows these requests are usually too good to be true, but this one was for real. When we arrived, the pasture was truly a beautiful sight for a varmint hunter’s eyes. The place was literally crawling with the little grass-munchers. Because our friend’s pasture was quite remote, the gophers had never been bothered. They were perfect candidates for a fast-paced rimfire hunt. We parked my SUV and started unloading guns and ammo. Two days later we left for home—after having fired 3,000 rounds! Our Ruger and Thom­pson/Center rimfire rifles had done an incredibly effective job, and our landowner friend was amazed at the results. The little pests were now nowhere to be seen.
A Continent Of Plinkers
Through the years I’ve collected many wonderful memories courtesy of my rimfire rifle as critters ranging from gophers to coyotes have fallen to the little bullets. And more than a few skunks and crows have also bit the dust, as well as nuisance beavers and muskrats.
I still own my first rimfire rifle, a wonderful old Ruger 10/22, which shows a lot of wear, but still shoots well. Every so often I leave the tricked-out Ruger and super-accurate T/C Benchmark at home and go plinking. I hope to give it to a son or grandson some day.
Rimfire rifles are the most popular firearms in North America, and more rimfire ammo is shot in a year than anyone can really comprehend—after all, numbers are only numbers once they exceed 652 bazillion (or some such term). Let’s just say trainloads of rimfire ammo are shipped to waiting customers every year. Of the handful of rimfire cartridges on the market today, the most popular by far is the .22 long rifle (LR). In recent years, a pair of .17 caliber rimfires have also come on the market. The one thing all rimfire cartridges have in common is the case has a priming compound located in a fold inside the rim. The firing pin hits the outer edge of the case rather than a centrally located primer—hence the term “rimfire.”
As a youngster, my major purchases occurred after I’d saved up a few dimes and nickels to buy a box of .22 Short ammo for my single-shot rifle. In those days ammo in the pocket was all it took to go hunting. My friends and I rarely shot .22 LR ammo because it was too expensive. I killed countless rabbits and gophers with those little bullets, and one well-placed shot from very close range did the job. We didn’t waste ammo by plinking—after all, who’d shoot an expensive bullet at a tin can when there were so many gophers to be shot for a penny a tail?
Nowadays, the .22 LR cartridge has pretty well displaced the venerable .22 Short of my youth. Today, we can choose from pure lead or plated bullets in match, standard or high-velocity .22 LR loads. I’ve found ammunition is extremely significant in determining how accurate a .22 rimfire rifle shoots. It pays to buy several different brands of ammo and test them individually in a new rifle. Some rifles shoot better with Brand-X while others prefer Brand-Y.
No discussion of .22 rimfire shooting would be complete without considering the .22 Magnum (also called the .22 WMR for Winchester Magnum Rimfire). The .22 Magnum’s longer case allows more powder to be loaded, and the result is approximately 40 percent more velocity. Through experience I’ve learned it shoots very accurately, kills better than standard long rifle rounds, but costs approximately three times more per shot. A .22 Magnum case is slightly wider than standard .22 rimfire ammo so it can’t be mistakenly fed into a .22 LR chamber.
Sweet .17
A few years ago, Hornady Man­ufacturing Company necked the .22 Magnum case down to .17 caliber and inserted a 17-grain red-tipped jacketed bullet. The results were astounding, and the .17 HMR took the shooting world by storm. Rifles and ammo went out of gun shop doors as fast as the shelves and racks could be filled. Within a couple years every major rifle and ammo manufacturer had jumped on the .17 caliber bandwagon. Why? Because the little cartridge is extremely accurate and fun to shoot. In addition, the .17 HMR carries enough energy to kill varmints and predators at longer distances than other rimfires. Happily, the supply pipeline is catching up so today’s shooter shouldn’t have a problem finding .17 HMR rifles and ammo.
Last year another .17 caliber rimfire was announced by Hornady—the .17 Mach 2, which is simply a necked down .22 LR case. The result has to be experienced to be appreciated, as it’s one hot little load. Once again the distinctive red-tipped 17-grain jacketed bullet is used, although velocities are down a bit from the .17 HMR.
I recently asked a friend of mine who loves this .17, why someone should buy a .17 Mach 2. “It’s fun, simple as that,” he said without hesitation. “The Mach 2 is a pleasure to shoot, and it surprises people with its performance. And don’t be fooled by its small size—this is a 125-yard rimfire cartridge that’s amazingly accurate.” After 4 hours of benchrest shooting the new T/C R-55 semi-automatic rifles in .17 Mach 2, I completely agree with my friend. Fifty-yard groups were frequently one ragged hole about the size of a dime. As a matter of fact, I had no problem making the 1⁄2-inch aiming marks on the target completely disappear with a few 10-shot clips of rapid-fire action.
When I shot the .17 HMR for the first time I was impressed with its accuracy, as well as the fact I could see every bullet hit. When I first shot the .17 Mach 2 my reaction was “This little cartridge really cracks!” How Hornady got so much performance out of such a small package is simply amazing.
You’ll notice in this rant I’ve chosen not to focus on the ballistics of various rimfire cartridges. That information is readily available from catalogs and the Internet. I believe aside from competitive shooters, most rimfire rifles are purchased for plinking.
So what do I recommend? If you want to shoot a bunch, go with a .22 LR because ammo is significantly cheaper. If you want to experience what very fast little bullets can do, then buy a .17 caliber. Which .17? That’s dictated by which rifle you prefer, how much money you want to spend and how much you shoot. Keep in mind .17 HMR bullets travel approximately 20 percent faster than .17 Mach 2 bullets, but the ammo is more expensive.

Beo
02-15-2008, 10:43 AM
Hope this very long winded rant helps some of you out, others already know alot of this and some could care less as they just buy ammo and shoot or hunt, but with all the data we have at the range both at the Sheriff's and my Gun Club I couldn't help but think this may help some of us.
Beo,

MedicineWolf
02-15-2008, 11:25 AM
Wow bro, that was great I actually learned alot, disagree with a little, but give it a bif fat thumbs up. Ain't this in your blog too? Don't matter good stuff. Lets see what Remy has to say from the Professor stand point as you say:D

Sourdough
02-15-2008, 11:35 AM
A semi-related point is that, just because you see something clearly and obstructively through a scope sight, does not mean that the bullets path is unobstructed. Because the scope is mounted above the axis of the bore. You may see clearly over the crown of a hill or over a rock, but the projectile could hit the rock or hill. I have had this happen several times with caribou hunters, and once with a sheep hunter.

Beo
02-15-2008, 11:56 AM
Each of these shotguns was tested at either my departments range or hunting with it. Some will have a different opinion but and the end result is choose the slug gun that you can afford and are comfortable with, heck it may end up being a darn Flintlock like mine:D
I happen to like slug guns, probably because I carried one for many years as an avid deer hunter before I went to flintlocks. That old Remington Model 870 pump accompanied me on some hair-raising experiences, usually at night, and I can recall a couple of times when that gun saved my skin.
Back in those days, slug guns had short barrels, rifle-like open sights and no choke constriction. My hunting partners and I shot whatever slugs we could find, and accuracy was measured in "minute of deer" at 25-50 yards. Part of my hunting the private farm entailed shooting a significant number of cattle-killing coyotes, and my Model 870 did the job well. It shot Browning Legia brand Brenneke slugs very accurately out to 65 yards, so they became my standard work load.
Nowadays the term "slug gun" is likely to signify a shotgun that's specifically designed for deer hunting. These guns have rifled barrels, superb open sights and/or cantilever scope mounts and special stocks designed for shooting with a scope. The most preferred slugs are now saboted projectiles that shoot consistent groups out to 150 yards or even slightly farther. In fact, ammunition manufacturers have concentrated their efforts on extending the capabilities of slugs with great success.
An Array Of Choices
Benelli's top-of-the-line slug gun is the Super Black Eagle II, a 12 gauge semiauto in Advantage Timber HD camo, black synthetic or satin walnut stock. It features a 24-inch rifled barrel and will handle 3-inch shells. The M2 Field 12 gauge semiauto is available in black synthetic or camo and features the standard 3-inch chamber and 24-inch heavy-walled barrel. All of these slug guns have adjustable sights and receivers that are ready for a scope, as well as recoil-reducing ComforTech stocks that absorb almost 50 percent of the kick from magnum loads.
If you prefer a pump, check out Benelli's Nova. It's available in 12 or 20 gauge with a rifled barrel and adjustable sights, or as a combo rig complete with a field and slug barrel. The latter features a cantilever, rifled barrel.
Beretta offers its A391 Xtrema2 KO synthetic rifled slug model for deer hunters. This gun has a 24-inch rifled barrel and is available with a cantilever base for scope mounting. The action handles up to 31⁄2-inch shells and recoil is greatly reduced thanks to Beretta's Kick-Off recoil reducing stock.
The Browning Gold gas-operated semiauto shotgun is offered in three slug models, the Rifled Deer Hunter (12 and 20 gauge), Rifled Deer Stalker (12 gauge) and Rifled Deer (12 gauge). All models have 3-inch chambers, and rifled slug barrels are 22 inches long with a 1-in-28-inch twist rate. The barrels are thick-walled and have cantilever scope mounts attached, and none of the barrels has open sights.
The Rifled Deer Hunter has a satin-finished walnut stock/blued barrel, the Rifled Deer Stalker a black composite stock/blued barrel and the Rifled Deer has a Mossy Oak camo composite stock/ camo barrel.
Harrington & Richardson offers three single-shot break-open-design slug guns. The top of the line is the Ultra Slug Hunter Deluxe in both 12 and 20 gauge. The heavy 24-inch barrel is fully rifled, and the gun has a checkered, laminated Monte Carlo stock, recoil pad and factory installed scope bases and nylon sling.
The Ultra Slug Hunter is similar to the Deluxe except the stock is made of walnut finished American hardwood. This slug gun is available with a shortened stock for small-framed shooters that drops the length of pull from 141⁄4 inches to 131⁄8 inches.
Mossberg offers a pair of slug guns called the 500 Slugster and 535 ATS Slugster. The 535 ATS is a pump action in Mossy Oak camo or black synthetic stock featuring a 24-inch rifled barrel and adjustable sights. The receiver is drilled and tapped for a scope. The 535 ATS will handle 31⁄2-inch shells, and the 500 is similarly equipped but chambered for 3-inch shells. Mossberg's pump shotguns are reliable, rugged and feature easily accessible top-mounted safeties and twin action bars.
Remington's Model 870 pump shotgun is available in three slug models, the Express Deer, Express Synthetic Deer and Express Slug, all with 20-inch rifled barrels. The Express Deer has a Monte Carlo style wooden stock and choice of the standard 12 gauge 20-inch rifled barrel or a 20-inch Improved Cylinder barrel that will handle both slugs and buckshot. The Express Synthetic Deer has a 12 gauge rifled barrel and Monte Carlo style black synthetic stock.
The Express Slug is available in both 12 and 20 gauges, with heavy contoured rifled barrel that increases gun weight slightly, thus reducing recoil. The barrel doesn't have open sights, instead a cantilever scope mount is factory mounted.
All Remington Model 870 slug guns feature twin-action bars and receivers milled from a solid billet of steel. From experience I can say with confidence that there are few shotgun designs that are as reliable as the Model 870.
Remington also offers the Model 11-87 gas-operated semiauto slug gun in two 12 gauge 3-inch magnum models. The Premier Cantilever Deer has a Monte Carlo style satin walnut stock and 21-inch rifled barrel complete with a factory mounted cantilever base. The Sportsman Deer has similar specs but comes with a black synthetic stock.
Savage offers a unique bolt-action slug gun that looks more like a heavy-barreled rifle than a shotgun. The Model 210F Slug Warrior is one of the nicest-handling slug guns on the market and features a 24-inch rifled barrel chambered for 3-inch shells. The composite stock is available in black or Realtree camo. A one-piece scope mount is included with each slug gun because there are no open sights. The 210F is intended for accurate shooting, pushing the envelope for slug gun performance.
Weatherby offers deer hunters its SAS Slug Gun featuring a unique adjustable butt-stock that has a shim system for changing the cast or angle of the stock. The SAS is available in 12 gauge 3-inch with a 22-inch rifled barrel and comes with a cantilever mount installed, as well as sling swivel studs.
Winchester offers its Super X3 Cantilever Deer gun in 12 gauge, 3-inch magnum with 22-inch rifled barrel. Winchester's cantilever is unique because it incorporates a Truglo front sight and folding rear sight in its design, which enables a hunter to easily install a scope. The Cantilever base even has a full-length groove that can be used for open-sight aiming if the rear sight is folded down. The Super X3 has weather-proof coatings on the metal and stock. I've shot the Super X3 and was impressed with the accuracy I achieved with Winchester's saboted slug. Although I've listed these gun manufacturers in alphabetical order thus far, I had to break that rule to save the most accurate and best-built slug gun for last. Tar Hunt Custom Rifles offers two slug guns, a worked-over version of the Remington Model 870, and a bolt-action model that's essentially a custom rifle that shoots rifled slugs. The 870 modification in 12, 16 and 20 gauge sizes involves installing a threaded sleeve and barrel. This means the barrel is more or less permanently installed rather than having the original take-down design. The permanent installation makes for far superior accuracy.
The Tar Hunt is truly a custom built slug-shooter. It utilizes a proprietary action, McMillan stock, E.R. Shaw 12 gauge rifled barrel and all the tricks used in building custom rifles. This is a minute-of-angle slug gun, right from the first group fired. This is particularly true if you use specially developed Lightfield slugs, which have a unique post wad that wedges forward. This ensures a perfect fit of the slug within the plastic sabot and optimal accuracy.
As I stated earlier, modern shotguns fitted with scopes, rifled barrels and loaded with saboted slugs are deadly on deer at ranges up to 150 yards. Yes, most deer hunters will tote a centerfire rifle where it's legal to do so, but they shouldn't feel like they've drawn the short end of the stick when regulations mandate the use of a slug gun.
As for me, I still like my 870 pump if I gotta use a shotgun, but i prefer my old Flintlock over even these.
Beo,

Beo
02-15-2008, 01:03 PM
This might should've been in General Chat... not sure but if it should've then I'm sorry and it can be moved if need be, just not by me:D

Tony uk
02-15-2008, 03:37 PM
Very nice posts, Take me a while to read but well worth it, Its hard to get a gun up here (Although people still get killed by them) but good stuff to know anyway, Never know when you might have to Rambo your way out of a retirement home

crashdive123
02-15-2008, 09:17 PM
Nice post. Lot's of good research. Thanks Beo. For anybody worried about bullet deflections you may want to look at the M82A1 50 Sniper Rifle. Pretty accurate to over a mile, not too much going to deflect it. Of course it might be a wee bit agressive for hunting (meat in a blender ok, but hunting probably not).

FVR
02-16-2008, 11:09 AM
Very informative, although I make it a practice not to shoot through brush with a rifle. I've heard the same arguments with heavy vs light arrows at trad. fps vs high speed cam bows.

I am waiting for the class that pits the modern centerfire cartridge against the blackpowder rounds. Fps slow vs fast, shock power roundball or sabot vs copper bullet with lead core.

Beo
02-17-2008, 12:07 AM
All I can say is bigger ain't always better but it sure helps http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/fusionbb/images/smilies/hatsoff.gif (javascript:void(0)) nuff said, http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/fusionbb/images/smilies/rotf.gif (javascript:void(0))