I met a neat group that's living it.

[TresMon]

I'm sure that by the end of my yarn there will be many various opinions here but....

I met a neat primitive skills group thats living it as much as they can. They are living on 30 acre's that borders a VAST national forest. There is a pristine mountain stream that flows out of the Nat. forest right through their property. They are the only ones that live of the water shed.

They live in little "wattle & dob" shacks. That is sapling woven walled structures "dobbed" full of clay then the outside is skim coated or "plastered" over entirely with clay mud. They have have dirt floors and peeled poplar bark roofs. The things are pretty air tight and flea market bought or rock-made wood stoves provide heat.

They just do skills day in and day out or have a slow day if they feel like it- just like the natives did or so I read. They are learning "full survival" together as a slow, enjoyable journey. To supplement their food for now they have a dumpster diving "circuit" they go on monthly or so an end up with "way more food than they know what to do with." They showed me a 5 gallon bucket full of organic & medicinal tea packets they pulled out of one dumpster- all still in the plastic wraps- perfectly good. They are slowly tapering off the dumpster foods.

I asked them what they do for income and they explained that except for just fuel for vehicles and insurance on same- they simply just do not need money. Each member is asked to put $15 in the pot montly- this to cover the property tax for the year and typically fuels the dumpster raiding vehicle for the year, and pays for the land line tele. There's no electricity but a phone is available for member use. Internet is 15 minutes away by road at the library. They explained that the random odd job keeps them in "PLENTY" of money per their way of life.

They tote water from the creek, garden the few level spots and cut/process fire wood manually- starting with cross cut saws. They have folks in the area that drop off good road kill too. The bear hunters appreciate them allowing them to use their land to access the Nat. Forest and typically give them at least two whole bears a year. From what I saw there was a MOUNTAIN of canned foods (LOTS of canned meat), condiments and cooking ingredients all sourced form hunters donations, road kill and dumpsters.

You may or may not agree on how they are getting by, but no one can argue that they are not incredibly resourceful and have ADAPTEd and learned to get by COMFORTABLE on nearly ZERO cash flow.

It's not a fly by night operation either- they have been at it for 12 years. Some come and stay a while and go but a few of them have been there for the whole time. One person lived there for a few years and went on to start a successful wilderness survival school that is doing well today.

i told them I had picked up a wall tent and was looking to move in the forest near them on private property. They invited me to come and stay on a temporary basis with their group and if we all clicked for me to stay a good long time- an offer I will likely take them up on.

[BENESSE]

If it's legal, it doesn't hurt anyone and they're happy, why not?

[Willie]

I think its cool!

[jake abraham]

I'm glad that they are living the way they want to

[RandyRhoads]

That's incredible. Someday....someday.......

[birdman6660]

Thats wonderful ... I have a 78 yr old friend that being doing "almost" the same thin since 1981 ... he has converted a shipping container that he lives quite comfortably inside of .. it has steel plates that drop down over the windows and doors as well ! well armored !! .. has bathtub gardens .. has over 5 tons of stored foods ..live in the middle of nowhere but doesnt do dumpster raids as there simply arent any around here . I am almost as ready as him ... I could do without cash totally if need be as could he ... its a very comforting feeling .. Believe me !

[TresMon]

Yeah what blew me away is that that no one hunts or traps. They said that if I was a "responsible" hunter/trapper all the better they'd like to learn.

[TresMon]

A member here pm'd me and asked me what the rank/supervisory structure is like. After I sent my response I thought I would post it here:

The supervisory structure is basically "family." There's no boss. If you don't REALLY get along with everyone on a short term visit (living there a few months) your asked to leave by the whole.

I mean the one man that has been there the longest is kinda like the "elder" that is looked to. He openly states:
"Im NOT the boss. I may have been here the longest and know the general flow the best and what we're after, but I'm not the boss."

It does not seem to be a disciplined based system rather a responsibility based system. That is folks that get to stay are the "chip in and help out type" that don't have to be asked. If somebody empties one of the glass gallon water jugs, they automatically go and fill it in the creek. But- if somebody stops by the community hut and see's a jug is empty, even though they didn't empty it- they go fill it. It's a step up to the plate system instead of a "if you slack you'll get it" system.

It sounds like it could fall apart- I see that too, but the proof is in the pudding it's been working for them over a decade.

God Bless,
Tres

[SemperFi]

whoever owns the land is ultimately the boss, just out of curiousity where is this you talk of bears and yet dumpster diving , parks usually dont have much good stuff in dumpsters so Im thinking close to a city, yet theres bears? or do they travel ? they have cars and insurance , responsible ? they dont have guns , or no how to hunt , what is used for protection (bears are around so are hunters?) , they use the nearby creek for water , whats upstream? what do they use for toilets , hole in the ground? How do they kill the bacteria?

[Wildthang]

Well I suppose it beats being homeless. But when you think about it, being self sufficient and have minimal responsibility would be cool. I just dont think I would want to live like that unless It was the only way. I like having the skills to live like that, but living like that for the heck of it is just not my bag of tea.
But if that's what makes them happy, it's all good by me!

[Sarge47]

Well I suppose it beats being homeless. But when you think about it, being self sufficient and have minimal responsibility would be cool. I just dont think I would want to live like that unless It was the only way. I like having the skills to live like that, but living like that for the heck of it is just not my bag of tea.
But if that's what makes them happy, it's all good by me!
I agree, As long as they're happy, great. But that's not a way of life that i would do. We've progressed as far as we have because our ancestors wanted to Make life easier and more enjoyable. I'm not doing without my computer, internet, cable TV, and so on. :nod:

[BENESSE]

If I had to join a survival community, then it would be patterned after Rawl's "Patriots".
They have enough structure which one needs even when there are 2 people let alone a group, and they use everything at their disposal--old fashioned skills, technology and money...which, in my book, aren't mutually exclusive.

[TresMon]

1whoever owns the land is ultimately the boss,
2just out of curiousity where is this you talk of bears and yet dumpster diving , parks usually dont have much good stuff in dumpsters so Im thinking close to a city, yet theres bears? or do they travel ?
3they have cars and insurance , responsible ?
4they dont have guns , or no how to hunt , what is used for protection (bears are around so are hunters?) ,
5they use the nearby creek for water , whats upstream?
6what do they use for toilets , hole in the ground?
7How do they kill the bacteria?

1.
The Lady that purchased the land, bought it merely so it could be left pristine, instead of yet another high end gated community being built on the edge of a national forest. She also has been a political green activist and helped get laws changed to help folks be able to live "green." Then a group of earthy folks found out about the property and her views. They went to her and stated they were the very type of folks she had helped and wanted to use the land. She said fine, just pay the property tax.

2.
Many mountain towns have bears really close by. Bears are often seen at motels & hotels in Gatlinburg, TN at the edge of the Great Smoky Mtn Nat. Park- despite it being flooded with people. In rural mountain areas folks see bear in their back yards. This is that type of setting. This is not near a "park." It is near an "empty" national forest. There is few small towns 20 miles away. They go there for dumpsters once in a blue moon.

3. Yes some folks there have cars, pay the insurance, by the fuel, maintain them etc. etc. Just because you decide to live close to the earth does not mean your an irresponsible derelict that sponges off the guv'ment. Sure I'm sure there are some that do, but don't assume it's the stereotype.

4. Yes there are a few guns around camp. But they are just another tool. This is not a "militant group" nor are they even of "prepper" mentality. These are just folks that want "on the job training" for living "off" (with) the land. The hunters are no threat. (Are hunters ever a threat?- they are the good guys.) The one's that hunt nearby are the neighbor land owners, or at least reside in the same rural area. Also there's just black bears here. They are huggable and lovable compared to grizzlies. I was a fly fish guide in the Great smokies Nat. Park for two years and saw MANY wild black bears. EACH occurance- as soon as the bear figured out I was human it bolted and ran like a scared dog. Sure you hear of nuisance bears- but they are trained/created a nuisance by ignorant tourist hikers that are at fault, not the bears. You only need "protection" from your given Black bear if you do something REALLY stupid around a momma & cubs. From my experience anyways... They longest residence of the place say they see bear tracks near the property boundary, but have never seen a bear or a track in camp. Bears are elusive anywho and avoid folk.
I'm not saying a handy pistol isn't cozy; but the reality of it (with BLACK BEARS, only) is that if you got half a brain and are a basic woodsman even your likely to never to have a problem in a life time.

5. I stated in the OP that they live on the creek, that comes out of the mtns of the Nat. forest and they are the only ones that live on/use the water shed. They drink the water straight, and have for a decade with no issues. Sure Giardia or Crypto could show up some day, but no issues thus far...

6. No they don't poop in the ground. You can't do that with a group this size living in one spot unless you have a WELL functioning outhouse. They use composting toilets... http://humanurehandbook.com/

7. I'm not sure what bacteria you mean? Poop? Refer the the webby above. Hand washing? They perfectly good every day ordinary soap out of dumpsters. Water born bacteria? See answer # 5 above.


I agree, As long as they're happy, great. But that's not a way of life that i would do. We've progressed as far as we have because our ancestors wanted to Make life easier and more enjoyable. I'm not doing without my computer, internet, cable TV, and so on. :nod:

I understand it's not for everyone. And they actually prefer to keep a low profile. That's why I did not even put up the link their website- and it's somewhat vague anyways. They do not wish for or push their lifestyle choices on anyone. And 99% of the folks come for a while and then move on. I don't see myself living it forever- HA! But since childhood I have dreamed of "living it" for at least a year. And my life is in a position right now to walk off grid and go for it. So why not??
And I'm a bit of a "prepper" but it's back burner thoughts of me. But if the dung get's flung- I guarantee the folk that had already lived it long term in the past.... will lead those that have never when it all goes down.

Just fun stuff and free choices. No one is despondent, beat down, or do this as their only miserable option. Some pay big money to go do the 28 day course at B.O.S.S., some pay $10.5G to do a 9 month course. Others- they do this for basically free, for as long as they want. That's all.
:chinese:

[Wildthang]

Actually if you were the kind of person that has the desire to live like that, it is an admirable way to live. But like I said, it's not for me unless it'a a have to case. At that point, I would do it and make the best of it! No doubt they have a carefree life! I wonder if they all have medical insurance? The only bad thing about that kind of life is that if you had to be on welfare, medicare, or whatever, I would feel like I was sapping society in a way!

[TresMon]

The only bad thing about that kind of life is that if you had to be on welfare, medicare, or whatever, I would feel like I was sapping society in a way!

I could not agree more!!! To be REALLY HONEST I made the (jerk of a) assumption as I was headed out to visit them I was going to find a bunch of stinky, pot smoking tree hugging hippie's living off food stamps and EVERY possible guv'ment system they possibly could. I was extremely wrong and VERY pleasantly surprised.
Medical insurance? I have no idea. I don't know them personally. I went from ignorance of them to having visited them for 2-3 hours and we talked of their community and how they operate the whole time. I have related what I pleasantly learned here in this thread. It's none of my business as to if they have med insurance. Sure it's a good idea. But I live an "average" lower blue collar class suburban life- and I have not been able to afford the luxury of med insurance in over three years.

[Wildthang]

I could not agree more!!! To be REALLY HONEST I made the (jerk of a) assumption as I was headed out to visit them I was going to find a bunch of stinky, pot smoking tree hugging hippie's living off food stamps and EVERY possible guv'ment system they possibly could. I was extremely wrong and VERY pleasantly surprised.
Medical insurance? I have no idea. I don't know them personally. I went from ignorance of them to having visited them for 2-3 hours and we talked of their community and how they operate the whole time. I have related what I pleasantly learned here in this thread. It's none of my business as to if they have med insurance. Sure it's a good idea. But I live an "average" lower blue collar class suburban life- and I have not been able to afford the luxury of med insurance in over three years.

Well Tres, even if they do get free medical or whatever, if they have worked most of their lives, they have probably earned it far more than the illegals and just plain ole lazy azzes that have done this and never hit a lick at a snake. I am sure that in a lot of ways, they may even lesson the burden on society in many ways. So I am not judging these people, but was just curious!

[TresMon]

Were good, I took nothing in the negative. Thanks bud.
I think its cool they seem to not "invite" BUMS to come stay there. Rather it seems they are typical persons such as I imagine the rest of us are that frequents this board often- that just want to take their skills up a notch(or 10.)

[payne]

This project looks extremely interesting.
I have a few friends with whom I intend to realize something similar. We actually have our very first reunion on Tuesday - funny coincidence.
If you could PM me their website, I would love to read more on their project.

This type of life is so healthy, and actually benefits the rest of the society: in a sense they are saving the world from a ton of waste. They are also proving that we do not need as much as we think we need, which is something I really hope more people realized and actually started applying.
I personally really think of this kind of project as something extremely important for our planet and humanity, and it shouldn't be as low-profile. People should hear way more about this kind of communes, as they show a very good example of legitimately working alternative living style.

This summer, I am going to help a somewhat similar project up here in Canada. It's definitely less oriented on primitivism, but I'll still feel great for volunteering and helping out. :)

[TresMon]

PM sent. I agree with your statements indeed.

[Sourdough]

NOTE: Medicare is Insurance..........My standard has always been stay healthy. I had a flu bug in the winter of 1985. I just qualified for Medicare this month, And it is the very first Medical Insurance I have ever had.

I could (but won't) argue that the people who use insurance as a safety net for poor lifestyle choices, are the real drag on society.

[crashdive123]

As you say - they are doing it on private land where they have permission to be there - great - they are living the lifestyle they want to live and bothering nobody.

I do not have a desire to live that way. I also do not equate dumpster diving as "taking skills up a notch".

To each their own - not my cup of tea though.

[southard]

Just fyi there tres, black bear attacks are more frequent than other bears. Dont underestimate them. Racoons are cute toobut they'll jack you up. Wild animals are just that. But that situation you described is pretty interesting. Sounds like some of the communes in the northwest and southwest started in the '60's and later.

[hunter63]

Sounds like a commune to me, nothing wrong with that, have friends that did that for a while, getting "back to the land" and all.

Not my desired way to live any longer....but hey, sounds like a match to me from what you have stated here.

[Wildthang]

Well I sure wouldn't mind living off the grid, but if I did, I would have hot running water, power, air conditioning, and all the nicety's of modern man. I dont mind roughing it if I have to, and do like a primitive camping trip, but if I dont have to live like that, I wont!
I have had thought of selling this place someday and moving to a simple area and building a totally self sufficient cabin just to get out of the rat race!

[payne]

I think the thing is we actually -do- have to live like that: if we all keep living like we do at the moment, the Earth is going to perish. Or at least, that's my vision of the thing.

[TresMon]

I think we think alike Payne. At out current rate of consumption, we are exceeding the long term carrying capacity of the Earth.

[payne]

Glad to find people not calling me a dirty hippy for actually being rational and wishing only good to humanity. =/

[crashdive123]

Are you implying that those that do not agree with you are not rational?

Just kidding - everybody is certainly entitled to believe what they want.....even if they are wrong.:innocent:

[TresMon]

Crash my friend I'd agree with you with you because I like you, but then we'd both be wrong, you know??

; ]

[payne]

Are you implying that those that do not agree with you are not rational?

Just kidding - everybody is certainly entitled to believe what they want.....even if they are wrong.:innocent:
I guess you're right: I was missing the words "trying to be" in front of "rational". ;)

[southard]

While we consume/waste more in todays 1st world countries inproportionally to the rest of the world. The big problem is unsustainable population especially in 2nd and 3rd world countries. Going primal is not a simple solution. Lack of food, proper/healthy heating and cooking, water and waste treatment are the main issues along with the human variant. Humans as a whole suck we are a scared herd animal. It only takes a small # tomess it up. The arrogance of humans that we can destroy the earth. We may make unlivable for a relativley short period of time and wipe ourselves out but until the sun goes nova the planet will be around a long while.

[Sourdough]

The Earth will take care of it's self. Humans are the Cancer multiplying and destroying the earth. Mankind will do NOTHING to change our gluttonous behavior, and as a result about two billion human thingies will die. No big deal, it just going to stink for a while.

[Wildthang]

Well I think mother earth is going to even the odds someday. It seems shae has already started in some cases. We think we are the rulers of the earth, and do not realize just how fragile we are. Just a lack of fresh water can take us out!

[TresMon]

You guys all say the same thing. We humans are going to cause a situation to where we can no longer exist on our home. Generally speaking for a long while anyways. Yes?

[BENESSE]

. . . . . . Yes.

[TresMon]

Well aside from one grand.. um... "religious event" I am not supposed to go into, I agree as well.

[Rick]

I don't. I do think we've made a terrible mess of things but we are learning from our mistakes albeit slowly. 35% of all aluminum used in the U.S. is recycled and 75% of aluminum produced since 1888 is still in use today*. We produce more food today than at any time in human history. We have cleaner water and air today than even a decade ago. We have more forested land and land set aside as protected wilderness than ever before. Mining reclamation laws mandate that the land be reclaimed and not just left as a scar on the planet. Pesticides and other dangerous chemicals to man and wildlife have been banned and/or strictly regulated. More and more renewable energy sources are being added every year in terms of wind farm generation and electric hybrid vehicles. We have a long way to go for sure but our future isn't as bleak as some of you predict.

Famine has always been a part of the human condition and probably always will be the our ability to positively impact starvation has made great strides over the last half century and the regions impacted today are much smaller than in decades past and driven more by localized corruption than our inability to actually feed those impacted.


* http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aluminium_recycling

[BENESSE]

All the improvements we're implementing are but a band aid on a chest wound of environmental abuse.
We're protecting more than we used to but we're also destroying faster than we used to; and a surprising number of people are advocating for their right to do so. Even right here on WSF.

[hunter63]

I'm thinking that most all of y'all are correct to a point.....but rather than wailing "whoa, is me" at the wall....I believe that some one or a bunch of someones with good ideas and greed will find a way to turn it ito profit for them selves, either in money, power and way of life change for the rest of us....seems that that is the way history worked.

Waving flags, chanting, and making demands..... won't do it.....the "work" begins with each of us.

[TresMon]

I agree whole heartedly Hunter.

And there's advantage & disadvantage to a lot of things. I wish no one harm. But If I look up one day and discover that I live on planet that is now only half as populated as it once was- that would have to seem awful roomy!

[Rick]

It ought to feel a bit roomy now. If everyone on the plant were given 10 square feet we would fit on a land mass the size of Fiji. That means there's a lot of vacant real estate out there.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_density

[southard]

I agree we are making inroads to correcting ourselves in this country, But we are only part of the world. China and India both have greater population numbers than us and are on the way up in there economy and industry. They are where we were what 60 or 70 years ago maybe further. At this point they dont have any interest in protecting the enviroment because they are bringing their people up int prosperity. I am in no way being a naysayer or doom speaker. I am a conservationist, not to be confused with a enviromentalist for reasons I wont go into here, and I believe in protecting and working our resources for the betterment of mankind not to the detriment. And while you maybe able to reside in 10x10ft square in Fiji it takes alot more room to sustain each person on this planet.

[payne]

I'd advocate the redistribution of the current comfort/wealth instead of an "increase for everybody" because it'd, in my opinion, be unsustainable.

[crashdive123]

I'd advocate the redistribution of the current comfort/wealth instead of an "increase for everybody" because it'd, in my opinion, be unsustainable.

I won't get into a discussion on your statement because is will invariably lead to a political discussion. Suffice it to say that you and I are worlds apart.

[BENESSE]

Payne, I can explain away your statement only because you're still young.
At some point, unless you join a group like the one in the OP, you might understand why people who've worked hard all their lives to build a life that makes them happy don't look kindly on those who want to take it all away and give it to someone they deem more deserving. It's all about fairness--getting to keep the fruits of your labor vs. getting things you haven't worked for.
We don't have to get political in order to grasp the basic concept, I think.

[Rick]

Ain't nobody redistributing my toys and if you step one foot on my 10 square feet you're goin' down.

Of course you can't sustain anyone on 10 square feet. My point was that people are concentrated in densely populated centers. If you cram us all together we don't take up as much space on this planet as most would think.

[TresMon]

Payne, I can explain away your statement only because you're still young.
At some point, unless you join a group like the one in the OP, you might understand why people who've worked hard all their lives to build a life that makes them happy don't look kindly on those who want to take it all away and give it to someone they deem more deserving. It's all about fairness--getting to keep the fruits of your labor vs. getting things you haven't worked for.
We don't have to get political in order to grasp the basic concept, I think.

I agree with you B and for some personal views I don't think kids should be allowed motorcycles until age 25 minimum, nor do I think it would be healthy for the younger crowd to stay with a group such as in the OP for very long until they cut their teeth on and really appreciate LONG term hard work and the fruition of same to be realized & evident. That the youth comes to own the understanding that hard work, maturity and responsibility are the demanded ingredients to make it it in the modern world. Lest such a group inadvertently allow a young'un to get the wrong idea or impression that laziness or little/low responsibility get's you by. It doesn't and shouldn't in general.

For the record these are general statements and not pointed at Payne in the lest; accordingly I have no Idea what Payne's age is.

Also, If Payne comes across this and so chooses, let's have him restate/clarify his last sentence. I have read it several times and it seem he unintentionally contradicted himself as least a little, to me any ways.

Good, juicy stuff. I like it.

[Warheit]

Just out of curiosity -- if we cannot get "political" on this board, why do I consistently see Ron Paul advertisements on the website?

[TresMon]

Just out of curiosity -- if we cannot get "political" on this board, why do I consistently see Ron Paul advertisements on the website?

LOL!!! It had crossed my mind too!

[payne]

Payne, I can explain away your statement only because you're still young.
At some point, unless you join a group like the one in the OP, you might understand why people who've worked hard all their lives to build a life that makes them happy don't look kindly on those who want to take it all away and give it to someone they deem more deserving. It's all about fairness--getting to keep the fruits of your labor vs. getting things you haven't worked for.
We don't have to get political in order to grasp the basic concept, I think.

To me, the basic concept we should follow is purely moral: should we allow people to starve to death in Africa, while here in America people have 3 TVs and their own personal training gym with each individual piece costing over 1000$?
I do understand that it's hard to agree with the fact that what you've earned should be given to someone else, but my young mind tells me it is because we have been programmed to think that way.
If you were born in a world where everyone had the same salary, no matter what profession they are exercising, you wouldn't even care about such a thing.

The sacrifice of wealth redistribution is for the greater good, including your own.
And here, I too am guilty of not redistributing my wealth and being greedy: I have a few thousands of dollars in my bank account, and I live pretty well because my father is currently hosting and feeding me.
It is hard to choose solely on your own to do such a thing, but if I knew everyone was forced to do it, I wouldn't mind it and would find it pretty fair.
Just think of my province, Quebec, versus the USA: we are happy to pay for the universal health-care and education access, but it looks like the USA doesn't want of that because it's unfair to them. Status quo most of the time is satisfying to the majority of the population.

The fairest system I can think of would be a world-wide wealth redistribution where every human being is guaranteed a reasonable minimum salary as long are they are achieving a minimal amount of work for the society.
The disabled that cannot work, of course, would earn this salary anyways.
Most of the jobs' wage should be switched from hourly to piecework: a performance-based wage can easily reward the hard-workers while offering somewhat flexible schedules to workers.

I do realize there are many possible flaws to such a system, and I am willing to have a discussion oriented toward increasing its efficiency.
And please, do not discard my vision only because I am young. I myself respect anyone's skepticism toward it.

On a somewhat related note, why doesn't this forum accept political discussions? I believe they are great as long as people are responsible enough to not start hating each other because of different political visions.

[Warheit]

Payne: You are now ordered by me, Warheit, to re-distribute your wealth to me for a greater good. :cowboy:

[payne]

Payne: You are now ordered by me, Warheit, to re-distribute your wealth to me for a greater good. :cowboy:
No problem. Nothing happens: we're both living well and no wealth redistribution is required. :)

[Rick]

Payne - You are professing communism or at the least socialism. Neither has proven sustainable over time. As to your comments on state sponsored health care, the reason we oppose it has nothing to with the status quo and everything to do with timely and superior quality of care. It's why border Canadians that can afford to come to the U.S. for treatment. Yes, our system has many ills but it's preferable over being told if and when you can have your surgery.

Warhheit - The ads are targetted by key word. If I write Winter Sports you may now start seeing ads for vacations or ski resorts on the page. The Ron Paul ad may have purchased 20 keywords that would trigger a display on any site that supports any of the various ad marketing campaigns and is not controlled by the forum owner.

[payne]

Payne - You are professing communism or at the least socialism. Neither has proven sustainable over time. As to your comments on state sponsored health care, the reason we oppose it has nothing to with the status quo and everything to do with timely and superior quality of care. It's why border Canadians that can afford to come to the U.S. for treatment. Yes, our system has many ills but it's preferable over being told if and when you can have your surgery.

Warhheit - The ads are targetted by key word. If I write Winter Sports you may now start seeing ads for vacations or ski resorts on the page. The Ron Paul ad may have purchased 20 keywords that would trigger a display on any site that supports any of the various ad marketing campaigns and is not controlled by the forum owner.
Generally, the only two historical sources of communism that people relate to are Russia and China. It would be hard not to admit they miserably failed at applying the concept Marx had established: Stalin and the likes have been horrible leaders that gave bad names to communism as a whole.
But while those two examples were major failures (and with good reasons), so few actually know about the other attempts at creating communist societies. Among others, a fairly big anarcho-communist society has been implanted more than 100 years ago in Israel: the Kibboutz. They have had outstanding results. Unfortunately, an economical crisis forced them to reorganize their society, and it ended up switching to a more capitalist society. There are probably many factors that shifted the values of this society, but I haven't really studied the case.
This is just one example of a (once) successful communist economy. I am more than convinced there are many others around the world (most probably quite a few in Spain).
I'm only saying this to disprove the general fact that everyone seems to call on communism: "it is not sustainable".
Socialism, however, has never shown to be unsustainable (to the best of my limited knowledge).

Restricting the access to health care just so the richer can have instant access to care doesn't seems right to me. I prefer making sure the ones that can't afford to stay healthy are in the capacity of getting healthy without engaging into enormous debts.
The current system's over-load is mainly caused by the fact too many people abuse (knowingly or not) it by presenting themselves with stupidly minor issues that they could've stayed at home for.
For any system to work, you need the population to be properly informed and well educated.

Another way to see the "communism vs capitalism" debate: if, during communism, people had a very bad quality of life while all having the same amount of wealth, then it must either mean that it's because this system can't work, or it's because it was misapplied. In the case that it was misapplied, then we cannot say that "communism doesn't work" because it would then become a fallacious statement. In the case it's because there is not enough wealth in a society to be able to separate it equally without reaching a low quality of life, then I'm really asking myself how can capitalism be better: the same amount of wealth, but with richer and poorer people. This means there are people that willingly decided to reduce even more the quality of life of others, just so they can live better. It looks insanely immoral to me.

Now, let me tell you I do believe capitalism can work. However, the current applied systems we are seeing all around the world are extremely flawed and are not working as they should. What I advocate is that communism looks like a better alternative than capitalism.
If there is a single system I believe wouldn't work, it's anarcho-capitalism. To a certain extent, it could (and would) work, but hell, to what price!

My ideas are not very clear as of yet, and I still have some reflexions to do on my own. Travelling does help me on this side. Discussing with people is another great way to improve your knowledge.
I would've liked to polish a bit more this current post, but I have to go.

[Rick]

A country's success is measured on productivity. What incentive do you have to increase productivity if you will receive the same income today that you received yesterday and will receive tomorrow with no regard for the quality or level of output?

A Kibboutz is not communism but direct democracy. While sharing in both social status and finance is encouraged there is nothing to prevent an individual from improving their wealth, which they can, by choice, share with others to raise their productivity and standard of living.

[BENESSE]

Also, to add to Rick's POV...
A Kibboutz is a community not a country. People choose to enter it because they share its values and they know the drill up front. More power to them! I love it when people have choices and I'd like the same privilege. If you want to share your resources/wealth/work/whatever, that's up to you. What I do with mine, is up to me. (not you!) Live and let live.
What about this concept is so hard to comprehend?

[randyt]

My buddy Ivan came from bulgaria. After the fall of communism he had to leave bulgaria and go to germany in order to learn how to work. His words not mine. He said under communism there was no incentive to produce, zippo, nada, none.

redistribution of wealth is a hoax perpetrated by those that want to take control, they care nothing for the folks they're bull$hitting. I've read accounts of russians lamenting lenin and wanting the czar back. I've read accounts of starvation in north korea that cannibalism was rumoured to be happening.

I've owned my own little company for 25 years. I've worked through more lunches than I've taken,made a lot of other sacrifices that I won't go into here but if I have more wealth than somebody that didn't make that effort I deserve it.

lastly a little story from my child hood. When I was 10 years old a neighbour hired my brother and I to pick apples, 50 cents a box. His daughter and her friend were there too. we all were to pick these apples. My brother and I picked apples and hustled like crazy. We picked ten boxes to the girls one box. When time came to get paid the blankety blank decided in order to be "fair" the boxes should be added up and split four ways, BS. We deserved what we earned. I should have told our father but didn't. We were extremely poor as children and only knew one way to change that and that was to work our way up. My brother and I reminiscence about this often. It has formed some very strong opinions in me. If my children came to me and the same had been pulled on them I would be looking the a$$hole up. They would get paid their due one way or the other.

I don't want to get banned from the forum so I better quit posting about this matter.

[BENESSE]

That's what it's all about.
People who don't get it, will probably never get it. But our borders are open...the doors swing both ways. Just make sure they don't hit you on your way out.

[COWBOYSURVIVAL]

There was a time where I was the victim of redistribution of wealth, well more than a few times. But I will discuss just this one time, because the other stories are tooo long. It happened at work. I had worked hard and put in the effort over the years to become the premadonna of the plant. Then it was sold and the new regime redistributed my wealth to employees that had just begun to work and had no long term intentions. Basically when it came time for a raise I no longer got one but it was given to the lower wage earners in the plant that had no knowledge or experience, effectively tripling their raise. This went on for 3 yrs. before I over came it and entered management. 8 yrs. later I have convinced the team to pay for experience once more!

[COWBOYSURVIVAL]

The result of the redistribution of wealth did not improve performance, attendance, or quality of work. Changing a persons wage does not improve a person. Money is not a motivator. Motivation comes from within you, noone or no amount of money can change that for people that have none. I believe it must be instilled upon a child from day one, start on day 3 and it is too late.

[BENESSE]

. . . +1, cs.

[Rick]

Can't argue with that. I've seen highly paid players that weren't worth the powder and I've seen low paid workers that could work circles around two normal people. It's just who you are.

[BENESSE]

Speaking of...
Have y'all seen "Moneyball'? I am not a rabid baseball fan but the the movie is about so much more.
It's about thinking outside the box and for that, experience isn't necessary.
My take away? Keep an open mind.

[payne]

My buddy Ivan came from bulgaria. After the fall of communism he had to leave bulgaria and go to germany in order to learn how to work. His words not mine. He said under communism there was no incentive to produce, zippo, nada, none.

redistribution of wealth is a hoax perpetrated by those that want to take control, they care nothing for the folks they're bull$hitting. I've read accounts of russians lamenting lenin and wanting the czar back. I've read accounts of starvation in north korea that cannibalism was rumoured to be happening.

I've owned my own little company for 25 years. I've worked through more lunches than I've taken,made a lot of other sacrifices that I won't go into here but if I have more wealth than somebody that didn't make that effort I deserve it.

lastly a little story from my child hood. When I was 10 years old a neighbour hired my brother and I to pick apples, 50 cents a box. His daughter and her friend were there too. we all were to pick these apples. My brother and I picked apples and hustled like crazy. We picked ten boxes to the girls one box. When time came to get paid the blankety blank decided in order to be "fair" the boxes should be added up and split four ways, BS. We deserved what we earned. I should have told our father but didn't. We were extremely poor as children and only knew one way to change that and that was to work our way up. My brother and I reminiscence about this often. It has formed some very strong opinions in me. If my children came to me and the same had been pulled on them I would be looking the a$$hole up. They would get paid their due one way or the other.

I don't want to get banned from the forum so I better quit posting about this matter.
As I've said earlier, the fairest system I can think of isn't communism, but more like socialism. It'd involve piecework, which is pretty much the fairest way to reward people based on their productivity.
I'm not saying we should steal the money from people and just give it away to anyone, I'm saying people that are unable to reach a minimum of quality of life should indeed receive other people's money until they have reached this minimal quality of life.
People that could work, but are too lazy to, indeed do not deserve anything, and won't receive anything.

Thanks for the precision on Kibboutz, Rick.

[Rick]

They do today. It's called taxation (my money) supporting those that won't work (minimum quality of life). Happens in Canada, too. That has little to do with a type of government and more to do with bleeding heart #$553$$ that somehow get voted into office. Certainly there are a minority of individuals that deserve a hand up. The rest of the bums want a hand out and I make sure there is a hocker in hand for them. (I just wanted to use hocker in a sentence).

[randyt]

socialism = polite word for communism.

[hunter63]

payne, will be fun to check in at about ten years from now, after you actually have to get out in the world and make your own way.....
Girl friend/wife/ kids/ job........There are some people that seem to avoid these things for quite a while.....or become professional socialist....but most succumb to the "rat race" sooner or later.

Enjoy your youth and idealism, and may you make a difference, before you get sucked in to the latest "world order".

I have alway thought that the smartest people in the world are 18 years old, I was....then got progressively stupider.

[TresMon]

When I lived in Scotland, I got free med care because I was a "visitor." I really appreciated that! And was SO grateful.
That's doing it right if you ask me.

However, In the same place there were strung out teens alcoholic teens and pregnant GIRLS galore. It was referred to me the Scotland has the #1 teen pregnancy rate in the world. Poland Was # 2, but Scotland's numbers were double Poland's. (these facts were given to me by ministry people and may no longer be accurate.) Why the teen problems? I was told Scotland has the strongest social welfare program in the world. There too your an adult at 16 I think it was... and hard liquor is sold in the gas stations. AND- All a teen had to do at 16 is file the paperwork that their folks had kicked them out and in short order they would begin receiving guv'ment checks. Now- Had I got free guv'ment checks at age 16 only by saying I've been kicked out, and hard liquor was for sale to me everywhere, I'd have been an alcoholic too and probably impregnated a few lasses. No wonder they have the teen problem. That's obviously not a good freebie.

My point is freebies can be REALLY helpful and appreciated. However it's FAR easier and more often done wrong.

[crashdive123]

Your medical care as a visitor wasn't free. While you may have appreciated it, I wonder if the people that were "required" to pay for it felt the same way about paying for a visitors medical care.

[TresMon]

I took it as a respectable noble notion. I think it would be honorable and noble if we offered free basic care to folks that were here on a volunteer Visa. I'd be okay with my tax dollars going to take care of folks that came here to help us out of good will (and not compensated for it.)

[crashdive123]

I'm not sure how many visitors to the United States fall into the category that you describe, but I suspect the numbers are very small. Also, keep in mind that any citizen, legal visitor, illegal alien, etc. can get emergency room care and treatment without the ability to pay. This too is not free, and one of the causes of health care/insurance costs in this country.

[TresMon]

I'm not sure how many visitors to the United States fall into the category that you describe, but I suspect the numbers are very small.

I agree. It would have to be quite small. I just used it as a "not abused" freebie illustration in my response above.

[Rick]

But we do. No facility can deny care based on the patient's inability to pay. Ask the health care pros in California, Nevada, Arizona and Texas what that does to their bottom line or how fair and noble it is. It occurs throughout the country of course but the border states and inner city hospitals seem to bear the brunt of the burden.

I was once in Canada and required health care services, They ,too, were provide to me "free". I had the ability to pay but was given free care. I'm sure someone living payday to payday and paying taxes would not have been pleased about it.

[Warheit]

socialism = polite word for communism.

One is an economic system, one is a political system.

Might be a good idea to be in the right ball park before stepping up to the plate to take a crack at it.

[randyt]

One is an economic system, one is a political system.

Might be a good idea to be in the right ball park before stepping up to the plate to take a crack at it.

that's your opinion, I have mine.

[Rick]

Actually, both are forms of government. I'm not disagreeing with you Warheit, just stepping up one notch. In essence both of you are correct. Under Marxist ideology socialism would be the first major step toward communism.

[Batch]

Ok, so anyone have an insight into the historical long term sustainability of communes?

They almost always start out great and then slowly deteriorate over time.

Its like piece work. You bust butt and make good money (try and redistribute that!). Then something happens outside your control and it starts eating into your pocket. Equipment malfunction, or poor communication and your our a couple of weeks pay.

Piece work is legal if set up right. You have to obey minimum wages and other governmental laws. But, you own the down time and a lot of the mistakes. Because, the boss still holds rank.

Also, no two men will every truly be equal. At least not for long. Even if they could be exactly equal, one would think he is better than the other and therefore entitled to more.

"Don't underestimate the other guy's greed!" Frank Lopez "Scarface"

[randyt]

I learned in seventh grade gym class that all men are not created equal LOL.

[Rick]

Okay, that right there is just freaky. The only man in my 7th grade gym class was the coach. Now I've got cold chills.

[randyt]

Rick, you are a turkey LOL. I bet in school you were the class smart acre, the teacher cringed when she saw little ricky coming through the door. <G>

[Batch]

, the teacher cringed when she saw little ricky coming through the door. <G>

Does this still have something to do with that 7th grade gym locker room? ;)

[randyt]

Thank you Batch, it most likely does LOL.

[Rick]

I was the only kid in gym class that wore a hong.

[TresMon]

But we do. No facility can deny care based on the patient's inability to pay.

That’s not “free” to the person in need. I had heard that too. Once upon a time I did not have money to afford any medical care, but had an emergency. So upon the “they have to treat you” premise I went to the ER. They fixed me. I told them I had no monies.
Well I was turned over to collection agents and firms and all the merry stuff that goes with that and the damaged credit etc. etc. That version is the furthest from free their is, I guarantee! Honest to God if I had to do it over again, knowing what I know now I would NOT go to the ER and just rolled the dice with fate. True I was a wet behind the ears naive kid, but I was going off the misleading "they must treat you" rumor.


Ok, so anyone have an insight into the historical long term sustainability of communes?

Per my understanding of a true commune the one in the OP is not. As far as longevity it’s been going over a decade.


Rick, you are a turkey LOL. I bet in school you were the class smart acre, the teacher cringed when she saw little ricky coming through the door. <G>


I was the only kid in gym class that wore a hong.

AN ACRE OF HONG??? Umm, please delete my membership and all traceTres was part of this forum! EEEEEEEEEEEEeeeeeeeeeeeeeeKK!

[randyt]

It was the a double s that I wanted to use. Acre was my attempt to keep it PG rated. It worked until Rick showed up with his hong. LOL.

[payne]

When I lived in Scotland, I got free med care because I was a "visitor." I really appreciated that! And was SO grateful.
That's doing it right if you ask me.

However, In the same place there were strung out teens alcoholic teens and pregnant GIRLS galore. It was referred to me the Scotland has the #1 teen pregnancy rate in the world. Poland Was # 2, but Scotland's numbers were double Poland's. (these facts were given to me by ministry people and may no longer be accurate.) Why the teen problems? I was told Scotland has the strongest social welfare program in the world. There too your an adult at 16 I think it was... and hard liquor is sold in the gas stations. AND- All a teen had to do at 16 is file the paperwork that their folks had kicked them out and in short order they would begin receiving guv'ment checks. Now- Had I got free guv'ment checks at age 16 only by saying I've been kicked out, and hard liquor was for sale to me everywhere, I'd have been an alcoholic too and probably impregnated a few lasses. No wonder they have the teen problem. That's obviously not a good freebie.

My point is freebies can be REALLY helpful and appreciated. However it's FAR easier and more often done wrong.
That's just an example of something not properly designed and implemented. I don't see how it can be used to discredit any left-leaning type of government.
Just like I cannot discredit right-leaning government for a flaw that'd allow anyone to abuse of the system.

And I guess it's a thing of values: I personally find it fairly egoistic to refuse to have your tax-money get used to help other people that need it.
Now if you're argument against it is that these people don't "need" it and are only abusing it, then I'm on your side. But this is, once again, just an example of how the system is not properly designed.
Do not discredit the whole ideology just because one of the things we have decided to implement hasn't been incorporated into our society correctly. Reforms and corrections are always possible.

For the concern on communes' sustainability: I guess the ones that we hear of the most are the ones created by the ideological youth, and since they are usually lacking a bit of life experience and rationality, they often fall into impossibly radical utopias that do not even follow their own values. If we try to look for older persons trying to perpetuate this kind of values, it looks like it's going pretty well. Here's a website listing a few attempts of what is called "intentional communities": http://directory.ic.org/
Different forms of progressive/left-leaning micro-communities are listed there. I think it's a database mostly oriented toward the United States' regions.
I haven't explored it much yet, though.

[Rick]

Tres - Of course the institutions attempt to recoup payment. I just said they can't refuse to treat you. Most patients don't give a rat's behind if it goes to a collection agency or not...if they even gave their correct name.

Payne - Notice that you've said cimmunes "attempted" or "tried" (not meaning to misquote you here). They just don't seem to succeed for a variety of reasons. I don't oppose them I just don't think they are sustainable.

I have no problem with state sponsored health care or state sponsored education as long as both offer high quality and are affordable for the supporting government. We can't afford either in the U.S. because we have chosen to spend our money, rightly or wrongly, on other endeavors.

I think if you look closely at the best examples of Communism and there are only a handful of one party Communist states you'll find they are either horribly impoverished, converting to a more democratic style to encourage class reform or both. The very same is true for socialism with some countries in both sub categories of government. China is an example as is Cuba.

Let us take a simple real world example. Let us say my neighbor is a single mom with two kids. A woman that wants to work but can't afford day care and has no skills or education to garner a higher paying job. She is currently on welfare, receives food stamps. She is currently receiving state aid that pays for her education, her rent and child care while she is in school (many states offer similar programs to enable folks to break the welfare cycle).

On the other hand, I am married with three kids. Both my wife and I work. While we are not rich we make enough to get by and some months put a little back for a rainy day.

Under your scenario I would have to give up enough of my wealth to bring my neighbor up to some middle standard where we both would be equal (considering income and gov't aid).

Both are real world examples that happen today. How is it fair that my standard of living should be compromised for my neighbor and what is her incentive to improve? In fact, the less she does the more I have to give her until both of us are in poverty.

[grizzlyadam]

That's pretty cool! Similar to what I want to do I guess, mind you I want to completely isolate myself and whoever wants to join me from all civilization in a 500kmX500km square patch of the northwest rockies.

Good for them in living how they wanna live though for sure!

[crashdive123]

That's pretty cool! Similar to what I want to do I guess, mind you I want to completely isolate myself and whoever wants to join me from all civilization in a 500kmX500km square patch of the northwest rockies.

Good for them in living how they wanna live though for sure!

Who's land do you plan on doing this on?

[Rick]

Oh, the BLM of course. Since they own just about all of the Northwest Rockies in the form of national forests. The northern 2/3s of Idaho and western Montana are almost all national forests.

[grizzlyadam]

Crashdive123 from what I hear, which I have yet to cross reference and find out for sure mind you, there's tons of crown land in the rockies.

[crashdive123]

Crashdive123 from what I hear, which I have yet to cross reference and find out for sure mind you, there's tons of crown land in the rockies.

I'm not real up on Crown land, but it would be an important part of your planning. I have read that Canadian citizens can build non-permanent structures, but can only stay for 21 days in the same location. Not sure if new Crown Leases are still available or you would have to purchase an existing one. There was a fellow on here a while back that was looking to sell his. He had a great set up, but it wasn't cheap to buy or to maintain.

[Northern Horseman]

The Earth will take care of it's self. Humans are the Cancer multiplying and destroying the earth. Mankind will do NOTHING to change our gluttonous behavior, and as a result about two billion human thingies will die. No big deal, it just going to stink for a while.
Your opinion reminds me of Agent Smith


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Na9-jV_OJI

I must say this topic has gone just about everywhere; From living off the land to living off the system, to live and let live.
heck, were even sending money to the poor people of Africa (who by the way use to live in harmony with nature until we showed up (rarely harmony with each other)
I think a truly good and working social net can only work in a country that focuses on production and buying their own goods, we've become too reliant on other countries to produce stuff for us for cheaper, in effect sabotaging our own work forces, I won't even get into what were doing to the farmers by making it so they can't produce their own seed anymore or ranchers to slaughter and sell their own meat, or sell dairy.
Slowly we are giving away all our rights to even produce our own food (legally)
Were raising a generation that feels they are entitled to a living and hoping they will create enough of a tax base to support the elderly (good luck with that one)
We our creating a mess for our children that they will be unprepared or unwilling to clean up.


The man who makes everything that leads to happiness depends upon himself, and not upon other men, has adopted the very best plan for living happily. This is the man of moderation, the man of manly character and of wisdom.
Plato

[Rick]

who by the way use to live in harmony with nature

That's why millions have died from starvation, disease and lack of clean water.

[Seniorman]

Party
Originally Posted by NH
"... who by the way use to live in harmony with nature."


RICK - "That's why millions have died from starvation, disease and lack of clean water."

Not to mention thousands of years of tribal and clan warfare, cannibalism, thievery, and acceptable and normal slavery of the peoples of the conquered tribes.

As for Mr. Payne's deluded and illogical endorsement of a "worldwide Communistic Utopia," if it were only "applied correctly, efficiently, and of course, fairly," by well meaning bureaucratic managers of extremely superior intellect who would know what was best for all the worker peasants, I'm afraid he's living in a dream world which has virtually no relation to reality.

That's not unusual for those young people who have been brainwashed by their Marxist Socialist inspired (and some times actual Communist Party card carriers), in schools from Kindergarten through Graduate school.

Most of their teachers and professors never have had an actual job of creating a product, a business, or getting down in the trenches and competing with others who are also striving to work hard and achieve success. Their spiel is always the same, as Mr. Payne said, "We need to take everything from those who are hardworking and successful and give it to those who aren't. Then everyone in the world will be equally miserable. That's only fair."

No matter, those who are brainwashed with the idiotic nonsense of Marx and Lenin (and I don't mean "Groucho" and "John") will almost never change their ideology even when being faced with the reality of life in the real world. It's always the same, "Well, it just wasn't applied correctly. I can do it right!!"

Mr. Payne, you might read a novel entitled Animal Farm, by George Orwell. Pretty good book. It might give you a different perspective. But maybe not.

And life goes on.

S.M.

[payne]

S.M., I will not lie to you, your intervention really irritates me. Ricky has proven to be a great debater that can keep his calm and expose his point of view with a neutral approach and presenting actual facts (which I really appreciate, by the way). On your part, you sound like Joseph McCarthy.

I particularly like how you quote me on something I've actually never written/said. Your "Mr." in front of my username is also a nice touch.

I have read Animal Farm. It was a good read. If I remember properly (it's been a very long while), its basic claim isn't actually against communism, but mostly against humanity's greed. If you consider that greed is inevitable, you might as well just consider any system to be wrong and faulty.

You seem to have a prejudice over the fact that I'm young (though I think we could also argue over the fact that you have prejudices toward "communism" itself as well). I have mentioned earlier in this thread that my vision of things evolved over time based on the inputs of my every day life. Well, it is still the case. In fact, on the course of the last 10 days that I've passed alone at my father's lodge, I have read a fairly good book from Platon and did change my vision of a few things (among others, I came to start believing that democracy might not be part of the Solution).

Anyhow, there is absolutely no point in engaging into any form of discussion with someone that argues like you do. I wish you a happy life of denial and fallacies.

[Rick]

Let's agree to disagree at this point. Shall we?

[TresMon]

Okay, Thread back on track.


























I have spent several nights at the primitive community and it's cool. I have got to know the full time few and developed a rapport with them. I have permission to begin creating my primitive shelter. I'm moving fast/ASAP to rent out my home. the income from rent, coupled with living in the forest should be plenty of income for the duration of my forest stay.

[payne]

I contacted them to know if me and 3 other friends could come visit them for 2 months in winter. They told me they didn't have enough space for us during winter. :(

[TresMon]

The few structures are primitive and small. They have had problems in the past on cold winter days of the shelters being packed elbow to elbow with folk huddling around the fire to the point of claustrophobia nearly. That plus... they get LOTS of visitors in the warm seasons. SO with limited shelter space for winter and being worn out with visitors during warm months- they lay low and keep it to just long term members and locals in winter.

[payne]

That's sad. :(

My friends and I wished to learn a bit on the side of food production and conservation. More advanced and permanent shelter-building skills would've been nice too.

How cold does Wisconsin get in winter?

[TresMon]

Update:

Hello everyone, I been away- in the woods. I have been living with these folk I spoke of in the op. Every day is a learning experience!!

We have worked on fire wood (without any help from liquid fuel or electricity= cross cut saws) Skinned and butchered & ate Deer and Beaver. We have washed and sterilized all the empty canning jars. I have worked on my shelter site which is a nice 200' elevation climb from the main camp/work area.
We cooked every meal over open flame, parboiling, roasting or frying in bear fat.

We have made primitive music, worked in forest gardens and recon'd secret areas for special camps. I have bathed in the mtn. stream a few times. It was SO COLD I had two navels by the time I got out. I'm tired; the coyotes rallying woke me up 4 times last night. They were, I assume calling in their pack to feast on the deer carcass we left on the back side of the Mtn.

I have a hide soaking in a lye solution. It is slated to be brain tanned and end up a Loin-Hong garment for the coming hot season. I saw a spring black bear too.

The salamanders are out and are the buds.

I miss being on here so much but glad to out there living it. I'll report back with stories and pics as I can.

[BENESSE]

Now, you're living it too, TM!
Good for you, glad you're getting the experience.

[Allen Currie Author]

Tresman Re Semper Fi
It is amazing how few people talk or perhaps even know of composting toilets. They are a real boon to water tables and other sensative to bacteria features. As to driving, why not? Insurance shows responsability and the object is to live simply BUT responsiblely. The problem is that so many people MUST have a cell phone and all the toys. I also applaude their low profile. Anything higher is going to disrupt the whole effort

[Seniorman]

TRESMON - " ... Skinned and butchered & ate Deer and Beaver. ... or frying in bear fat.

... the coyotes ... were, I assume calling in their pack to feast on the deer carcass we left on the back side of the Mtn."

Just curious here. Are the deer, Black bear, and beaver seasons still open in the State (N.C.? Tenn.?) where the commune is located, at this time of the year??

S.M.

[Rick]

Great to have you back! I'm glad you had a safe and joyful journey.

[TresMon]

Thanks Mr. Currie.

SM,
& all, please refrain from referring to it as a commune, it is not. The Deer & beaver were fresh road kill. As a Moral & ethical (Christian) person I observe the hunting rules.

[hunter63]

Good to hear it 's working out for ya....sounds intresting.

[crashdive123]

Glad you are enjoying your time spent with the group. Sounds like you are learning from each other.

[Allen Currie Author]

Tres
Isn't it also curious how the rural habits of sharing and helping are morphed into commune which has negative connotations in many N American minds.

And it is Allen despite my advanced age. Grin

[Seniorman]

Thanks Mr. Currie.

SM,
& all, please refrain from referring to it as a commune, it is not. The Deer & beaver were fresh road kill. As a Moral & ethical (Christian) person I observe the hunting rules.

I always strive to please. "Group" it is.

Glad no one is poaching. I know of a few "groups" back in the late '60s and '70s who had no problem with poaching deer and other game. It was a "Screw authority!," thing with them.

Best of luck with your new found friends.

S.M.

[payne]

Glad for you. Wish I could join.

Keep us updated! :D

[Wildthang]

Well Tres, are you going to stay with them forever, or is this just a learning mission? Wouldn't blame you for staying if you like it, and it fits your lifestyle! We have been missin ya buddy!

[TresMon]

I would like to stay long term is all I know for now.
Thanks for the kind words.

[Allen Currie Author]

I'm not real up on Crown land, but it would be an important part of your planning. I have read that Canadian citizens can build non-permanent structures, but can only stay for 21 days in the same location. Not sure if new Crown Leases are still available or you would have to purchase an existing one. There was a fellow on here a while back that was looking to sell his. He had a great set up, but it wasn't cheap to buy or to maintain.

You seem to be talking about Ontario. It varies from province to province. But even in Ontario one can get a permit to occupy for specific reasons such as mining or logging, etc. Then you can avoid moving 100 meters every 21 days. But still the buildings must be mobile. If you are say, thinking of a mine you get a specific permit to prospect or develop. Once you have done a specific development you will be offered a lease (Read expensive) and you can either accept or leave.

Other provinces have things like homesteading programs. In others it is quite easy to lease almost anywhere and fairly cheaply. Downside is that few can exist/live on that particular patch of rock.
Allen

[Allen Currie Author]

Payne
Read some of your previous posts which tended to deal with each person being paid the same regardless of occupation. You should study Robert Owen, a brilliant person and businessman. Way ahead of his time. He refused to employ children under 14 (a common practice at the time.) and instead insisted that the children of his employees be educated. He paid a living wage which produced unbelievable productivity. People fought, in one case to the death, for the opportunity to work for him.

Eventually, to avoid local naysayers and laws, he sold his London knitting mills and took the machinery to Salt Lake Utah where he started a city. He set up the worlds very first commune. Marx and Engels based their thoughts on his work, but they tweaked it to "correct" the problems he encountered. Then the politicians selected those parts they wanted and discarded the rest. (The usual way with politicians.) We got what we now know as communism. (commune-ism)

In the meantime his commune established a pay scale called an hour. A tailers hour was equal to anyone elses hour, a laborer or a doctor. Nor did that hour take into consideration efficiency. They soon lost all the more skilled workers and eventually the experiment failed The "city" was abandoned to go on to a very colorful future by various religiius groups

Allen

[Allen Currie Author]

Tresmon
Good on ya. Follow your heart, there and elsewhere.
Allen

[payne]

Payne
Read some of your previous posts which tended to deal with each person being paid the same regardless of occupation. You should study Robert Owen, a brilliant person and businessman. Way ahead of his time. He refused to employ children under 14 (a common practice at the time.) and instead insisted that the children of his employees be educated. He paid a living wage which produced unbelievable productivity. People fought, in one case to the death, for the opportunity to work for him.

Eventually, to avoid local naysayers and laws, he sold his London knitting mills and took the machinery to Salt Lake Utah where he started a city. He set up the worlds very first commune. Marx and Engels based their thoughts on his work, but they tweaked it to "correct" the problems he encountered. Then the politicians selected those parts they wanted and discarded the rest. (The usual way with politicians.) We got what we now know as communism. (commune-ism)

In the meantime his commune established a pay scale called an hour. A tailers hour was equal to anyone elses hour, a laborer or a doctor. Nor did that hour take into consideration efficiency. They soon lost all the more skilled workers and eventually the experiment failed The "city" was abandoned to go on to a very colorful future by various religiius groups

Allen
Looks like a good read. I'll write it down, and see if I can find some books in the libraries I'll find while travelling. :)

[TresMon]

I moved in! Been there 7 weeks now........

[BENESSE]

TM, just curious...
What your every day routine like?
Are weekdays different from weekends?
What's your set up as far as living quarters?
What's your favorite aspect of living like this and the least favorite?

[TresMon]

What your every day routine like?

The sun wakes me up with the first light of the day. Or is it the morning chorus of our wilderness song birds? I read my bible, then walk the 200 yards to our "bark lodge" where we cook meals together. On the way to the Bark Lodge I cross Squeaky Frog branch. We park our empty h20 jugs there. On the way up I fill one or two and carry them up to Bark Lodge. Being a Morning person More times than not I'm the first to get to the lodge.
@ the lodge I chop some fire wood into large kindling (max size*) if I/we are gonna build a (*smokeless) fire in the inside fire pit- which we do if it's raining, or the ground is wet from recent rain. If the conditions are nice we use a bit bigger fire wood at our outdoor fire pit adjacent the lodge. When the wood is prepped I hand drill a coal to start the fire if our banked coals burned out in the night. Typically whoever gets the fire going notifies the rest of the community there's fire by yodeling or blowing the conch shell. We cook and have breakfast together, or dinner as it's the same process regarding the fire. After breakfast everyone goes they're own way around the property/forest to work on what they need/want. Occasionally we have a group project we come together to work on such as recently we reroofed the/with peeled Poplar bark roofing of the bark lodge. Most days folk are working on personal projects. Hide tanning, trap making, black smithing, gardening, cutting logs in the national forest and dragging back to camp to split up, gathering medicinal herbs- an endless list. I say guh-night to the group at last light and head for my bed where I read till or slightly after dark. ZZzzzzZZzzzZZzz

Are weekdays different from weekends?
No! Kinda funny but often I don't even know what day it is! However Thursdays are a big day. We go into town to use the library internet, browse the second hand and thrift stores etc. Sundays are a big day as well. I head out for church and the rest of the group drives to a GREAT sunday flea market. Last week I scored a set of insulated Carhart coveralls that fit like a glove for $5- no rips or tears, just faded!

What's your set up as far as living quarters?
I live in a small wood shack a previous resident built out of salvaged lumber. It's not much, but it's a comfortable place to sleep. It has a tin roof, and Wattle & Daub walls. It's nice to have the salvage windows to let some light in. Interior dimensions are 8' x 10' at the most, if that. Old cast iron wood stove provides the heat.

What's your favorite aspect of living like this and the least favorite?
MY favorite aspect is the efficiency! I mean it's ALOT of work, but it's pleasurable, feels-good kind of work with the chopping wood, toting water, dragging logs etc. etc.- but I need VERY LITTLE money. My only pay-outs are vehicle insurance & fuel and a bit of "play money" thrown in for thrift stores, fleas market etc. I also like that my life IS MINE. We all wake with a plan of attack for the day. This for the vast majority of us is mostly influenced by others peoples agendas & demands Such as our boss, meetings socials etc. I'm, for the first time living my OWN life. Such as I need to begin thinking about winter, meat stores which in my area mean Deer & Beer Hunts. I need to Knap out some arrow heads. And re-tiller my bow, prolly I'll make a new string. Well These things are my "demands" for tomorrow. If I wake up tomorrow and find a nice tree has fell in the forest I might instantly begin sawing the nice dry wood into manageable lengths to drag back to camp to stock up on wood for the winter. Or if a friend stops by and let's me know he just hit a Ground Hog on the road nearby I may drop my "demands" and go skin the thing and tan the hide to make new soles for my moccasins....

I love how I am free to navigate my daily life with the ebb & flow of the natural sensibilities that each unique day presents- in the moment.


Least favorite aspect for me is I find myself missing the "quick fixes" that modern society offers when I'm REALLY tired or especially sick. Like currently I'm dealing with a sinus infection, causing great lethargy headaches and a sore throat. Feel yucky and weak.

If I were back in the world- I'd put a kettle on the electric stovetop to make hot water for some nice tea, pretty quick, easy and near effortless. Maybe call in a pizza delivery. But in the woods I likely forgo the tea because it requires chopping wood, toting water, creating a friction fire and well I think I'll just lie down and nap tealess and hungry!!!!


I'm in AL visiting my dad over Fathers day weekend. Thats why I can/am on here so much right now.

Thanks!

[jcullen24]

Thank you very much for the update!

[Warheit]

Just curious,

Do you take technology out there to post on here -- or come back into "society" to post? Either way, cool stuff and take care!

[TresMon]

In the red text I had said:



Thursdays are a big day. We go into town to use the library internet, browse the second hand and thrift stores etc. Sundays are a big [/I][/COLOR]



I'm in AL visiting my dad over Fathers day weekend. Thats why I can/am on here so much right now.

Thanks!

Then I had put that black text part in too...