Forum or Database?

[pgvoutdoors]

Forum: a gathering for discussion

Database: an orderly collection of related data

Internet forums such as this one have become very popular, but are they more forum or database? This is a bit of the old chicken and the egg scenario. The information stored on the forum comes from the discussions of it's members, hence a forum. As these discussions jump from one topic to another it creates a great database of information. So the question is, does the website become more of a database than a forum at some point? I believe it does and this is why:
When 98% of the people viewing the website are non-members, this eliminates the possibility of a discussing with the majority. They are extracting information only, withdrawing from the database as they will. This is allowed by forum owners with good reason, it pays the bills. Without large numbers of visitors to the website, the site does not make money. If you find value in the information you see on a forum, you should register as a member. Your contributions can only make the database better.
Another issue is directing new members immediately to the search feature of the website. This is a touchy issue, many regular members do not feel they should discuss something that has already been discussed. They just point the new member to the threads of previous discussions, ultimately telling them to use the database of information that is already stored on the site. I'm not totally against this, but just because past members muled over a topic doesn't mean new members can't give it a whirl. Let them go to it, something new may come out of it.
When the discussions drop to almost nil, with only the occasional post and response, the true essence of a forum is lost. The art of discussion and the exchange of ideas builds a forum's foundation. Disagreements occur, points of view differ, but that is how new ideas and information are shared. There is a wealth of information here, all for the taking and the use of anyone. It was accumulated through the past gatherings of members but by no means meant to be the beginning of the end for further discussions.

[whitis]

Definitely a forum and not a database. A database has carefully structured information. This site does not. The backend my use a database management system to store the posts but the only part that is structured is stuff like the username, date, and thread for a post; the actual useful content is not structured.

The sister site, wildcrafting.net is a database, but rather weakly so. Some of the information is structured but most of the information on a particular plant is in the unstructured comments. There are structured fields for scientific name, common name, edible, medicinal, parts used, picture, and scattered reports of sightings. A little bit more if you include the USDA data. But that is mostly name/classification/location. Most of the info about the plants has been put into unstructured comments because there are no structured fields to put the information in. You can't ask it what plants grow as vines with bristle tipped oval leaves with serrated edges, produces berries, is likely to be found in virgina, with flowers, in June. Because none of that is structured. Information about health claims aren't organized as a subtable with disease, part of plant used, preparation (tincture, essential oil, tea), efficacy, source,peer-reviewed, etc. You can't search on 'berry.color contains "red"'. An unstructured text search for "red berries" (quoted phrase) will get a false negative for "berries are red" and "red NEAR berries" will get a false positive for "in the fall, leaves turn red. Berries are blue". Unstructured information severely limits your searching, correlating, cross-correlating (between databases), reporting, and leads to information being sporadically entered. Searching for "serrated ovate virginia" is likely to fail because in an unstructured environment no one thought to describe the leaf shape in formal plant classification forms on some of the plants and the location was mentioned as 'VA" or "mid-Atlantic region". There is no query language (i.e. SQL or XQuery), so even when the information is structured you are very limited in how you can use it. Botany is a difficult subject to design a good database structure for and even harder too populate the database. It is also a subject that desperately needs a good database. Like many sites and books on edible plants, it also has the problem of primarily or exclusively including edible/medicinal plants. So your closest match will almost always be edible, even though the actual closest match, and the actual plant, may be poisonous.

I haven't been here very long but I have been using online forums of various sorts a lot longer than most people have been on the Internet. A forum doesn't cease to be a forum because the majority of uses don't actively participate or because repeating the same stuff for the 57th time is discouraged. It is good practice to look what has been said in the past and only if your question hasn't been answered or you have something meaningful to add do you start a new thread or necrobump an old one. This is something you will find on just about any decent forum on any subject and is part of maintaining a usable signal to noise ratio. It is also just bad form to expect hundreds or thousands of people to read spend the time reading your question, let alone answering it, if you haven't done any of your own homework. If it takes 1000 people 3 minutes to read an unnecessary post, that is 50 person hours wasted. Forums aren't a good place to ask a question that can be answered in 15 minutes using wikipedia, google, sticky threads, FAQs or the forum archives.

This doesn't mean newbie's can't ask questions. If you do a little research, you will likely still have questions. Better questions and both the questions and the answers will likely be more interesting to old pro's, newbies, and lurkers. Maybe more questions than when you started. You will have a better idea what information people need to answer your questions. Lurkers, as well, would be better served if the time they spent reading this forum taught them something they couldn't have learned in a fraction of the time by reading any basic survival text, like the field manual excerpts on this site.

Weekly repeats of "what should I put in my survival kit?" (with no explanation of what your needs are, your location, the types of scenarios, etc.) would eventually drive everybody, experienced and inexperienced, posters and lurkers alike, away. Forums developed things like FAQs as a protection. It is ok to rehash things occasionally, just not rehashing them ad nauseum. Guidelines generally aren't to discourage participation, just to encourage responsible participation. Don't be too intimidated.

[randyt]

the search button is a great tool, I use it often. However with new members coming, a repeat of a question can sometimes bring about new information or explained in a way that makes more sense.

[crashdive123]

Nobody has been "directed" to use the search button for about as long as nobody has been "directed" to the Introduction section. Move along. Nothing to see here.

[BENESSE]

+1 Whitis. Well observed and well put.

[BENESSE]

Nobody has been "directed" to use the search button for about as long as nobody has been "directed" to the Introduction section. Move along. Nothing to see here.

Absolutely right.
And what are we noticing after this new effort was implemented?
Anyone?

[crashdive123]

I'll venture a guess. Nah.....don't want to start a food fight.......again.

[pgvoutdoors]

It's 12:15pm 106 viewers 4 members including myself, poccomooneyes, and sourdough. Forum? Really? I still think the days of group discussion have departed.

[pgvoutdoors]

Crash - your comment of "Move Along, nothing to see here" should maybe be "nothing to Say here"!

[pgvoutdoors]

Nobody has been "directed" to use the search button for about as long as nobody has been "directed" to the Introduction section. Move along. Nothing to see here.

Crash - I'm not sure if your being facetious about directing people to the search and Intro or has there been a change of "policy"? I know over the years this has been a BIG problem, especially over the Intro. Has there been changes?

Whitis - I'm sorry if I threw you off by the term "database" as it was used loosely to describe a collection of information stored on a computer server that can be accessed by a simple search feature. Your explanation of a database was very detailed and I'll gladly except it . Any discussion of ideas is better than no discussion. On the other topics of searching and discussing, you have made some good points. Like I said in my original post, I'm not against the search feature by no means.

The whole point of this thread was to draw attention to the fact that the "Forum" function of the website seems to be lacking. It doesn't really madder how much searching is done, what really madders is the continued discussion of topics. Because without this, all is left is depositing our information in to the database and moving along.

If you believe your getting all you need out of the forum, then as Crash said, move along - nothing to see here. If not, then maybe more participation is the answer.

[crashdive123]

Phil - a few months ago a number of members expressed their displeasure in the fact that new members were asked to provide an intro and sometimes asked/told to use the search feature. That thread, which is closed, turned into an ugly display of name calling and immature behavior. Many - myself included - said we'd try it "their way" and not ask for intros, and not refer people to the search button (IMO the latter was used so infrequently that it wasn't worth mentioning, but it wasn't me that was upset by it). It was the hypothesis of those that had concerns that by doing so we would improve the quality of the forum, new members would sign up in droves and become contributing members since they wouldn't feel "picked on".

That ain't happened.

Interestingly enough, those that were complaining the loudest, and got exactly what they asked for have departed (on their own) the forum. So, in summary - a few people that really didn't contribute that much to the forum (yes, there were a couple of exceptions) told everybody how things should run. They got their way and left. I doubt a b***ch session like that will be allowed to continue in the future.

That was the whole point of my move along comment. It was in response to what B posted. I'm pretty sure she got what I was saying. Sorry for the "inside joke".

[pgvoutdoors]

Crash - Thanks for the update, I missed all of that. (and happy I did) The forum has a lot to offer, great discussions on the topics of wilderness survival and woodskills are some of it. These are the topics that serve us best.

[kyratshooter]

Interestingly enough, those that were complaining the loudest, and got exactly what they asked for have departed (on their own) the forum. So, in summary - a few people that really didn't contribute that much to the forum (yes, there were a couple of exceptions) told everybody how things should run. They got their way and left. I doubt a b***ch session like that will be allowed to continue in the future.

Most of us were amazed that it was allowed to go beyond 3 posts and a warning.

I have found that most forum "search features" are an effort in self abuse. If I did not already know everything I would be very discouraged most of the time.

Has anyone noted that we are doing a lot of "Where the He!! do you live so we can answer your question!" posts since we stopped the intro insistance?

[Rick]

If I did not already know everything I would be very discouraged most of the time. I think I've just figured out my problem and why I'm so danged discouraged all of the time. (kicks chat)

[BENESSE]

Don't worry Rick, there are more boats where that one came from.
Your ship might even come in!

[crashdive123]

Yeah, but just don't let Pal334 near it.:innocent:

[Sparky93]

Ahh, I remember it like it was yesterday. My first thread I posted had both a "step over to the intro section" and a "try the search tool" http://www.wilderness-survival.net/forums/showthread.php?14197-Buckskin-Tanning But in my defense this was the first forum I had ever joined and I new not of this mystical search tool or the intro section. The coments did not scare me away, and I see how telling a little bit about youself can aid in recieving advice and how the search feature can aid in finding super valubale information. But I also see how new conversation can lead to new information and ideas.

P.S.
What the fudge! I didn't know their was a sister site! How did I miss that?

And I miss Rick's whitty comments to new members who haven't posted an intro.

[Rick]

My comments were not shmitty! I always tried to help newbies and....oh, wait....you said witty. Never mind.

[letslearntogether47]

Not sure why this site would need to be branded either,forum or database?
Wilderness Survival is a bit different than some of the other forums I visit.
This site by way of database or questions on the forums can save a life.

[Chris]

The forum runs off of a database.

The forum is an application, the database is the method of storage it uses.

[hunter63]

I guess I don't see a difference what you call it.....
Participate if you want,...... or not???

[crashdive123]

We could always call it Sourdough's Cat House and Whiskey Emporium. That might generate some traffic.:innocent:

[Sourdough]

We could always call it Sourdough's Cat House and Whiskey Emporium. That might generate some traffic.:innocent:


Hehehehehe

[Rick]

Yeah, but where would we put all the cats?

http://www.tampabay.com/multimedia/archive/00162/flo_cat021311_a_162261c.jpg

[BENESSE]

We could always call it Sourdough's Cat House and Whiskey Emporium. That might generate some traffic.:innocent:

(Yeah, look how well it's worked for SD. :D)

We can also call it "The Outhouse"--we don't need no stinkin' door.

[crashdive123]

Come on B - you're the marketing guru.

The whole Whiskey Emporium thing hasn't worked out precisely because of that danged doorless outhouse. It seems to get all of the headlines.

[BENESSE]

Sourdough's Cat House and Whiskey Emporium was obviously meant to attract men and make some dough for SD. No sane woman would show up unless she "worked" there, right?
So I was going with that theme and cutting right to the chase. God knows a lot of those Wilderness "manly" men don't even use an outhouse, so a doorless one wouldn't make a diff.

[crashdive123]

How about Sourdough's Day Spa and Wine Cellar?

[oldtrap59]

I just looked before I wrote this and this forum or database(whichever you wish to call it) has 6,680 members. My experience on here is that there are seldom more then a dozen or so of those logged in at one time. Many times there are 10 times more guests then members. Several times I have heard members talk about lurking as a guest and I've done that myself. I guess I'm wondering how many of these so called guests are really members but not logged in? As Hunter63 stated in an earlier post," participate if you want,..... or not." This is still the best place to get information on alot of subjects. Much of the same stuff can be gleaned from books but in here it's coming from men and women that are either living it now or have in the past. Really, who cares if someone asks every now and then if a 22 makes a good home defence weapon or wants to know if a swiss army knife is the best survival knife. We all have our opinions and that's what makes this site so great. The differences. Even though we are all brothers and sisters in the art(and it is an art imo) of surviving not just TSHTF but everyday life. I for one am glad I'm here whatever you call it.

Oldtrap