PDA

View Full Version : Distilled vs Filtered Water



KrisKhaos
02-08-2011, 05:56 PM
Dunno if this topic has been covered, however a friend and I have been debating on how to full fill our water needs when in the bush. My friend is in love with Bakker's filter products, to whom sells everything from canteens w/ his "super filters" to straws.

Personally, I think filters are great but no matter how much they claim to process - they are NOT RENEWABLE. So even if they process a 1,000 gallons of tap, in the field they may process much less. My knowledge/exp with activated carbon tells me that filters may filter 99.9% of chems (etc), but after the first use, that filtration greatly reduces while the filter is used.

With that said....My plans are to build (and experiment) with a custom built portable distillery. Yes I know it removes those wonderful minerals too, but water isn't the only source of minerals. Distilled water is renewable, and will always filter about the same so long as you maintain the right/same temp.

Maybe a little insight, suggestions, etc. could be given before I embrace this project?

Trabitha
02-08-2011, 06:08 PM
To parrot Rick and many others, boiling in the bush is much easier. I boil for washin'-up-water, ( yes...that is a technical term. LOL!) but I use my berkey system for my drinking needs. I CAN bring the system with me...but it is a little bulkier than I would like. I bring our berkey sports bottles for short trips...and those filters can be boiled clean and get a LOT more life out of them. Just putting that out there.

Boiling may be a much better solution though. I know you seem to want to build something...but why add something more to your pack if you can just boil...ya know?

Rick
02-08-2011, 07:19 PM
KK - I think you're pretty close to the mark. I assume you are wanting larger amounts of water since a distiller will be larger scale than a backpacker's filter. Yes, turbidity makes a huge difference in the amount of water a filter will handle. I've pulled water that I had to scrub the filter after as few as 10 strokes just because the water was so silty. You can two stage or three stage your distiller depending on what your needs are. 1. you can use a simple cloth to remove most solid matter. 2. Activated charcoal will adsorb some organic material. All prior to 3. your distiller.

Pics, man. We'll need pics.

COWBOYSURVIVAL
02-08-2011, 07:43 PM
I like the idea! Like Rick said we need pics!

OhioGrizzLapp
02-08-2011, 07:59 PM
I take zero chances with water, I boil, then treat and then pur travel filter it. I have way too many health issues to let water be my downfall. The Pur travel filter is great. high rate purifying (not just filtering) in a small unit. I am only obsessive on two things backwoods wise, that is Fire and Water. All else I use the most expdient ways and means. High rate distalation would be great but hard to lug around. I have a US Navy Raft distiller and it works well on both fresh & salt water, but no way to lug it around, would only be good at a base camp.

Rick
02-08-2011, 08:05 PM
Here are some plans for a solar distiller.

http://www.motherearthnews.com/Renewable-Energy/1974-09-01/How-To-Build-and-Use-A-Solar-Still.aspx

LowKey
02-08-2011, 09:44 PM
Hmmm, those instructions call for sealing wood, galvy metal, solder and a damp rag that will eventually accumulate bugs or slimy plant life.
Seems there would be a much better way to build such a thing using food grade plastic containers, soda tubing and fittings. Will have to think a bit on the evaporator matte...

KrisKhaos
02-08-2011, 09:49 PM
Trabitha.... Not that I really 'want' to build something, I just want some closure of knowing my water isn't limited by means of how much it can process. (Even though you did read my mind, as I do like building stuff. lol) Boiling is never a bad idea, and it is the LEAST a person can do, however boiling only takes care of the nasties living in the water (and any chems who's boiling point is less than water). A renewable source of clean drinking water that will do a better job with things like heavy metals (for instance Mercury's boiling point is 674.6F), as well as the chemicals WITHOUT the need for a disposable filter.

Don't get me wrong. I may pack a filter or two, but I have no desire to rely on them. I have no desire to rely on them because I don't have much faith in them due to my experiences as a prof. chiclid breeder. I know that activated carbon (for example) was then at least the BEST means to remove unwanted chemicals from water, and still seems the most popular method in under-the-counter filtration systems. The problem is though once activated carbon gets wet, it aggressively absorbs impurities in the water, reducing it's ability to function to less than 50% on the first use! It continues at the same pace to quickly degrade down to nothing, making it virtually worthless in a matter of a few uses.

I don't know if it's the same for those little filters or not, but I am guessing that it's 99.9% contaminate rating is based on testing of THE FIRST SAMPLE from a fresh and brand new filter. As I said, activated carbon works GREAT on the first time use, thus the only time I used it was to pull the medication out of my 'hospital tanks'. lol I would also guess that it's lifespan is also based on what they can safely say how long it's good for until the poison intake could potentially be so great that could result in immediate lawsuit, where as the long term consumption is less likely to point back to the manufacturers. ;)

Not to mention I do need a large volume of clean drinking water. My troop count is anywhere from 5 to 9 plus atm...

Rick.... Awesome plans! That solar distiller would be a perfect addition to our soap making process! Esp. this last year when rain water was scarce. I might have to build one of those this spring and try it out!

As far as pack gear, the solar option may not have the output I am looking for. I had looked into a WaterWise 1600, but they seem to have been discontinued and the only one's selling it now are the sharks on eBay for 3x or more what it used to sell for.

At the moment my design/experiment is looking at a 16 to 32qt stock pot with a hose. lol The lid is to be fastened with lightweight clamps, and have even considered a computer water coolant radiator as a condenser, however if I can score some space age tubing that will shed the heat quickly, thus just use the hosing itself as a condenser. Once I pan out the plans and the materials I think will work the best, I will buy the materials and put the project into motion.

(Which will mean pics, pics, pics! lol)

Trabitha
02-09-2011, 11:25 AM
Trabitha.... Not that I really 'want' to build something, I just want some closure of knowing my water isn't limited by means of how much it can process. (Even though you did read my mind, as I do like building stuff. lol) Boiling is never a bad idea, and it is the LEAST a person can do, however boiling only takes care of the nasties living in the water (and any chems who's boiling point is less than water). A renewable source of clean drinking water that will do a better job with things like heavy metals (for instance Mercury's boiling point is 674.6F), as well as the chemicals WITHOUT the need for a disposable filter.

Don't get me wrong. I may pack a filter or two, but I have no desire to rely on them. I have no desire to rely on them because I don't have much faith in them due to my experiences as a prof. chiclid breeder. I know that activated carbon (for example) was then at least the BEST means to remove unwanted chemicals from water, and still seems the most popular method in under-the-counter filtration systems. The problem is though once activated carbon gets wet, it aggressively absorbs impurities in the water, reducing it's ability to function to less than 50% on the first use! It continues at the same pace to quickly degrade down to nothing, making it virtually worthless in a matter of a few uses.

I don't know if it's the same for those little filters or not, but I am guessing that it's 99.9% contaminate rating is based on testing of THE FIRST SAMPLE from a fresh and brand new filter. As I said, activated carbon works GREAT on the first time use, thus the only time I used it was to pull the medication out of my 'hospital tanks'. lol I would also guess that it's lifespan is also based on what they can safely say how long it's good for until the poison intake could potentially be so great that could result in immediate lawsuit, where as the long term consumption is less likely to point back to the manufacturers. ;)

Not to mention I do need a large volume of clean drinking water. My troop count is anywhere from 5 to 9 plus atm...




Good points all around. ;) In fact I should pay more attention to what you end up with, as we are being presented with more and more issues with our water in PA. (They are trying to put in an new natural gas compression station 1300 feet from our school...that's less than a couple of miles from my home. ) With all the chemicals and gas being found in the water it may be a good nugget of knowledge to keep in my pocket. :thumbup1:

Old GI
02-09-2011, 11:49 AM
Comment about distilled water: I use bottled distilled water for unique application requiring it. The bottled water we have for drinking and cooking (bug-in) is just regular bottled drinking water. It tastes better, is cheaper and has more minerals etc. than distilled. Otherwise (bug-out), the same as others.

finallyME
02-09-2011, 12:26 PM
Who in their right mind would want to make a portable water distiller? Oh wait, that was my senior design project :). If you look at the 2007 ASME student design contest, you will see what we tried to do. For the competition, we had to make a man powered distiller. It could not receive any energy outside of what a human put in. In other words, no fire or sun light. Using the sun or a fire, or both will be much easier. Another thing we learned is that at STP, a normal human cannot generate enough energy to vaporize water. But, if you change the pressure, you can decrease the amount of energy required. Our design used a vacuum chamber and a pedal generator. However, we put too much emphasis on the generator and not enough on the vacuum. I think the best option would have been to just use vacuum. Build a vacuum chamber with a heavy duty manual vacuum pump and just pump all the air out, until it all vaporizes. You don't need a condenser. Just open the chamber. The vapor will condense on the walls of the vacuum chamber. I need to draw a picture. I will be back. ;)

finallyME
02-09-2011, 03:51 PM
Alright, here is the picture of what I was thinking.
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4141/5431214169_715f2bd62a_b.jpg

Imagine there is bad water inside the box. Also, imagine that the cylinder is a closed vacuum chamber. When you pull a vacuum on it, if the vacuum is sufficient, the water will vaporize and fill the air. When you add pressure back inside (ie, open the chamber) the water will condense on the side walls and run down the side of the cylinder, not falling back inside the contaminated box. If you put it out in the sun, then you don't need to pull as hard a vacuum. Anyways, just an idea. There are a lot of ways to distill water. One more thing about distilling. Not all contaminates are left behind when distilling. Some will vaporize with the water. Distilling isn't the perfect water purifier.

Rick
02-09-2011, 04:21 PM
Don't get too down on portable filters. MSR and Katadyn make great backpacking filters and there are a number of emergency water straws that work really well, too. I've pulled water from some pretty questionable sources including road side ditches using an MSR Sweet Water kit and there's nothing wrong with me 2340@# o0hfc[ d020fdir (shakes head). Nothing at all. I'm more concerned about the buggies than metal contamination. I suppose if I lived around Detroit or some other mega manufacturing center I'd be a lot more concerned.

JPGreco
02-09-2011, 10:31 PM
Solar stills are very easy to make. Any large item that can hold contaminated water is partially filled. In the very center is another elevated container (so the contaminated water can't get in it) that is empty. Cover it will any kind of plastic and secure it. Place a rock directly over the empty container to create a low point in the plastic cover. As the water evaporates, it will condense on the plastic and run down to the low point and drip into the empty container.

This will work very well in warmer climates.

JPGreco
02-09-2011, 10:34 PM
Of course, you can combine methods and boil water out and let it condense in something else to gather it. Do that after running it through a sand/fabric/charcoal filtering system and you would have clean water.

KrisKhaos
02-10-2011, 02:22 AM
Rick....Check out the Indiana DNR 2010 Indiana Fish Consumption Advisory Complete Report. If the fish are contaminated (Polychlorinated biphenyl (PCB) and mercury), you can be sure the water is too. ;) Being a resident of Indiana, have you forgotten about the 1999 White River fish kill? Even though GM and Guide has almost completely left the state, it makes ya wonder just how many are breaking the laws by illegal dumping, and is not immediately noticeable such as killing the fish?

Regardless of possible conspiracies, mercury is a nasty metal, not to mention PCB isn't all that friendly either. The Indiana DNR continues to regulate fish consumption due to the concentration of contamination in fish that live in the tested bodies of water throughout the state. This shows that some levels of consumption of contamination is acceptable, and clearly survivable, however routine consumption of highly contaminated fish would obviously pose a serious enough threat that the state is spending an ample sum of money to monitor. Keep that in mind, as a filter boasts a 99.9% filter rating, upon it's usage that means it could be much less effective and you'd most likely survive it on the short term. Long term dependency upon the product might not fair so well.

I've been loosely building a list of what I can find to be typical (and eventually atypical) contaminants found in our water systems, as well as finding there boiling points. While I am considering compiling a more complete list, so far my findings are proving that an effective portable distillery would/could filter as much as reverse osmosis/activated carbon/bio filter would do (or better). I think before I can completely trust something constructed by hand in the field, if my research findings continue to prove a distillery as the best option, then upon completion I have intentions of sending samples to a good cheap testing lab just so I can put my water worries aside. :)

I've also been trying to get as much detail I can find on the compounds found in those popular filters as well, which seems to rely on either AC (activated carbon/charcoal or the coconut variety) for chem filtration. Not going to repeat myself on effectiveness topic, but it does help prove my suspicion. :) I have good reason not to put much faith into AC, not only by personal experience, but also working closely with those in the water purification biz. I'd like to send some in some filtered water (from the same source as the distilled water) to that lab just to compare some results. Dunno if that will happen though, due to cost and headache... :)

What it all boils down to is there is just so many variances here in play, not to mention the fact that I don't have a lot of faith in commercial products when it comes to my health and well being. Esp. noting that in today's market, companies will exaggerate and cut corners where ever they can just to save and/or make an extra buck. To top it off, I don't know the EPA regulatory process in which they approve such filters, and I would bet that it's processing is based much like the Indiana DNR, where a limited amount of consumption is allowed on the basis these filters are probably not intended to be used as a continual clean water source for more than a typical camping trip. ;)