Trying my hand at making a knife

[JPGreco]

Hi guys,
I've been poking around this site a little and I've learned a fair amount either through posts or links to the point I want to give making a blade a try.

Now, I've noticed most of the tutorials use a high carbon steel from old saw mill blades. I don't have any mills around me, but I do have saw blades, but mine are HSS (high speed steel) I think and not L6 or high carbon steel.

The carbon steel you guys have been using is mostly pure with a varying carbon rating. I've also seen high carbon steel from files used. I've also seen the sawmill blades labeled L6. Now I know all those steels vary somewhat.

HSS is a steel alloy comprising of iron and carbon like the other steels, but also varying amounts of chromium, tungsten, molybdenum, vanadium, cobalt, and silicone, which depends on the rating of the HSS (T1, M2, M7, M35, M42).

Now, comparing these steels, it seems the carbon content will fall anywhere from .03% to about 1.25% carbon by weight.

My question after all that info is simply this; how much does the tempering style change among those three types of steel (HC, L6, HSS)? If I'm wrong in the type of steel I have for the tempering process I use, what affect will that have on the final product? If I remember correctly, I'm aiming for a hardness of 45-65 (may be wrong). I know tempering affects the hardness based on the type of steel and temperature you bring it to before cooling. So if I'm wrong on the process for the steel, how much of a variation am I looking at or should I not worry as a rookie/amateur knife maker?

Also, just for reference, it will be a wood handle since its easiest for me right now, but Crash, I loved the homemade micarta tutorial.

Thanks guys. My apologies if this has been covered and I missed it or if its just a duh question, but I like to make things well when I make them.

Edit: Also, WOW! Some of the knives I've seen made by some of you guys are incredible. I hope I can reach that level (especially if I can sell a couple. God knows I could use the money).

[crashdive123]

I think that Camp10, Panch0 and Canid might be better for answering your steel questions (those guys are shmart).

I've been told (haven't verified) that circular saw blades that have carbide tips are usually made from a more mild steel. One way to see if it will work for you is to try and harden a small piece and then test it with a file or drill.

[JPGreco]

Yeah, I'm hoping one of those guys will pop in here to help.

What I'm more concerned with though is if its a decent steel to use, though I would assume that pretty much any steel is good for a beginner.

I'll try tempering a piece though, just not sure when I'll get a chance.

[panch0]

I have only made one knife from a file and it was a nicholson file. I tempered it twice at 425 the carefully ground out the bevels dipping in cold water after every pass. I have never used any of the steels you mentioned and I am not a metalurgest either. Most known knife steels have a heat treating and tempering recipe available to anyone. If you want to go the recycled steel route the other guys here could probably help you out more than I could. If you want to purchase some known steel, just get some 1080 or 1084 and you could do a decent backyard heat treat to it, and get a good usable knife.

After heat treating a steel and tempering, the RC hardness should be between 57-61 depending on which steel you use. Anything higher and there is a greater chance of the knife snapping with side force applied to it. Anything lower will not hold and edge very well. Be careful this knifemaking biz can be expensive and addicting. Good luck and be sure to post pics.

[panch0]

I usually don't express my self clearly and end up getting folks mad at me. I have used knives made from Sawmill, blades, farrier rasps, etc.... and they were great. I just havn't research steel type, heat treatment of those steels. They can make great knives. My comfort zone is going with known stuff. I ain't as smart or as imaginative as most folks. Thats just me.

[Winter]

I've made knives from circular saw blades and they work great. I cold worked the whole thing and didn't need to re-temper them.
These ulus are circ saw blades.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v238/w6f7/S4021443.jpg

I have a sawzall blade knife "how-to" on here if you wanna go that route.

There's alot of tricks to the knife thing that are earned cheaper if you are recycling steel.

[crashdive123]

I often use semi-unknown steels. I have not used (yet) any air quench steels like A2 or D2 - but I am now set up for it. Before I had my heat treat oven I heated the steel in a temporary propane forge to non-magnetic state and quenched it in motor oil. I then tempered the steel in Mrs. Crash's oven. While it's certainly not an exact process, I was able to achieve some good results.

[crashdive123]

Oh yeah - Winter did a fantastic tutorial. Here it is http://www.wilderness-survival.net/forums/showthread.php?t=13222

[JPGreco]

I read the sawzall blade tutorial, a very nice result. How well does it keeps it edge though? I mean, we go through sawzall blades like candy some days, so I definitely have some of those laying around.

I guess I should clarify. I'm completely comfortable shaping the metal into a blade. I know any metal sharp can cut (I've got scars to prove it). I was hoping to learn whether or not I can temper the saw blade steels for a better edge. Its looking like I have to give it a shot and report back with the results or go buy some 1080 stock to work with. I've read any steel can be tempered, its just a matter of the carbon content that determines how hard it gets.

Thanks guys. Any other input is definitely appreciated, especially where to find decent knife making steels on the cheap. I need a hobby to occupy time. Ideally one that isn't a fortune to start... lol.

[Winter]

Shaping metal is 1/3 of knife making. :)

Fitting guards, sheesh... I've had some take longer then grinding a blade.

[JPGreco]

Oh, I completely understand. In the amount of time I've been researching what kind of steel and asking questions, I could have already shaped an old blade, glued wood to the tang, and sanded it all down to a reasonable blade. It just would be a crappy blade.

[Camp10]

High speed steels used in saw blades have so many different variations that it is hard to give a one size fits all answer. To keep it simple, do this..throw it out in the yard and see if it will rust up in just a few days. If it will, it is probably an L-6 type steel and will take a traditional heat treat. You may have to play around with your temper and quench to get it right but it should work. If it doesnt rust up right away and is more of an alloy ( carbon, manganese, silicon, chromium, vanadium, tungsten, etc,etc) then your better to work it cold because the heat treat will be more like what is needed for stainless. Even still, it should make a useful knife. The ones to avoid are the ones with carbide teeth. They are made from 4140 or an equivalent steel and will not harden enough to work for a knife IMO.

[JPGreco]

Yeah, i've still not been able to confirm what type of steel the saw blades are. I'm thinking of just calling a guy I know and see if he has any scrap steel around. He should know what it is since he does welding work. That or order an 8 dollar bar of 1095 from an online supplier.

[panch0]

1095 is an awesome steel. To get the full benefits of that steel you need to have a controlled temp for a certain amount of time between 15-30 minutes. It is very hard to do. 1080 0r 84 is easier and will get you better results for learning the ropes on heat treating. I have made a big knife from 1084 and chopped through mesquite wood. It is very tough steel.

[kyratshooter]

[QUOTE=JPGreco;263700]Yeah, i've still not been able to confirm what type of steel the saw blades are. QUOTE]

The people that make them probably do not know what type steel they are.

You will find that for knife making the process of grading quality is much the same as for picking out a good saw or good saw blades.

You got your cheap crap that will not cut and gets dull after two or three seconds against the material to be parted. It is a cheap saw/sawblade and will make crapy knife blades!

Then you have your good stuff that holds up for as long as you could expect and finally snaps from fatigue and you can't remember when you last changed blades. That stuff makes awsome knives!

Then you have your known knife steels. Good durable stock that will forgive you a few degrees off the temp scale and still make a good knife with very little complication. O2 (Randall and most of the older makers), 1095 (Ontario, KBar, Mora, Old Hickory), 1080 (Stanley/Craftsman chisels, planer blades, laythe tools)

As a beginner, stick with the silmple stuff. You are way worried about the perfect steel and you have not learned how to center an edge and keep it true yet.

And you are going to make some crappy knives. In spite of all the times you have seen "my first knife" pictures on the internet and the blade looks like it was made by a master craftsman somewhere, remember that looks aren't everything.

[crashdive123]

[QUOTE=JPGreco;263700]And you are going to make some crappy knives. In spite of all the times you have seen "my first knife" pictures on the internet and the blade looks like it was made by a master craftsman somewhere, remember that looks aren't everything.

Hehehe. My "practice" pile of steel sometimes runneth over (makes good strikers for flint & steel kit though).

[Camp10]

For a first try, your best 2 steels as far as ease of the heat treat would be 1080 or 5160. They are both very forgiving. 1095 is a fast steel. It needs a faster oil and a quick quench from the forge. I use a forge and more traditional processes for most carbon blades including 1095 but if you watch my video and see the heat treat, you will see and hear me mention that I use a pipe in my forge. This does a great job of controlling my temps. You dont want the steel to get to hot but it needs to hold just over critical for a minute or so.

[JPGreco]

Kyratshooter, thanks for the info. I'm not really overly concerned with the type of steel I'm using to start, what I've been trying to do is identify it so I know how to approach it. If the saw blades are made of something I can't temper, and I try it, then I have no idea if I succeeded. It seems the better option is the purchase a known steel, and after reading pancho's post going with 1080, so I have a better idea of the results of my tempering. Its important to know what I am working with so I can tell whether or not I get good results. As you said, the difference in metals varies greatly, so I wouldn't be able to tell if I did a good job with crappy steel or a crappy job with good steel if I use an unknown type.
I'm not afraid of shaping the metal. I have power sanders, an angle grinder, polishing stones, and a stone wheel. Shaping the metal will just be a matter of patience and practice. Really, the major thing I would need at first would be a small furnace to hold a steady temp for an extended period of time when I move on to pickier steels.

[crashdive123]

I now have a heat treating oven, so that I can be very precise with my heat treatments, but my "temporary" forge has worked very well.

http://i261.photobucket.com/albums/ii67/crashdive123/Knife%20Making/KevinsKnife3002.jpg

http://i261.photobucket.com/albums/ii67/crashdive123/Knife%20Making/KevinsKnife3005.jpg

Here are a few iterations before I settled on using a brush burner for my heat source.

http://i261.photobucket.com/albums/ii67/crashdive123/Weapons/Knives053.jpg

http://i261.photobucket.com/albums/ii67/crashdive123/Weapons/Knives066.jpg

http://i261.photobucket.com/albums/ii67/crashdive123/Weapons/Knives001-1.jpg

http://i261.photobucket.com/albums/ii67/crashdive123/Weapons/Knives010-1.jpg

[JPGreco]

Thats more or less the route I plan on taking. A few fire bricks and a propane torch. If I really enjoy the project and can sell a knife or two, I'll buy some better stuff.

That, or for the first attempt, do what I saw in that video. A wood fire with a blower to stoke it.

[klkak]

Hey those first two pictures are the "Alaska Bush Knife"!

God rust her soul.

[crashdive123]

Hey those first two pictures are the "Alaska Bush Knife"!

God rust her soul.

Yes they were. sniff sniff

[canid]

HSS requires a very precise control and timing of your heating to get full hardening.

it does seem you can get it to harden somewhat just by heating to critical, holding for a few and then quenching, but the hardness will not be full, and will be very irregularly distributed. it's been suggested that i'm a fool for thinking one can do this, and that certainly may be true.

L6 is certainly a straightforward heat treat, suitable for improvised and primitive methods such as many of us use. the same is true for nicholson files which are frequently AISI/SAE 1095, but remember all heat treatment takes getting a feel for which is made easier by understanding as best you can before you start. this is one of the factors which makes the difference between somebody who gets it done rather well the first time and somebody who struggles to get the hang of it for quite a while (read: me)

I have had good results with the steel i've salvaged from an old angle-iron bed frame which seems to be a simple steel close to 1075 (though this is little more than a speculative guess).

it is always easier to use new, known steel from a trustworthy distributor/retailer. the more unknown variables in the equation, the less sure you can ever be about which ones contributed to your successes or failures.

when using improvised/primitive methods i advise you pay close attention during heating to make sure that you're heating the whole piece, and that you have no overly hot or cold spots (see crash's picture, where the glow is pretty even in color along the blade's edge, though this is most accurate when seen in lower light conditions).

you can always tell if you have successfully hardened the steel if you have a decent file, but you want to test this after hardening, not tempering. fully hardened steel will be harder than the teeth of the file and they will start sliding (often called 'skating') across it when you are taking off the tiny layer of scale and decarburized iron that forms from the hardening proccess.

[JPGreco]

Thanks man, I appreciate the info.

I'm gonna go with a piece of known steel for my first real attempt. We just burned a sawzall blade yesterday at work and I'm gonna give it a shot with that first though for my first shaping and see how steady my hand is with the tools I have. With this, I really don't care what happens to it. We throw out sawzall blades once a month.

The sawzall blade is an 8" wood cutting blade. The actual length of the blade is still up in the air. The longer the blade, the shorter the tang.
I can do a 4" blade (which will leave a 4" full tang) so its more like a pearing knife or I can do a longer blade (up to 6") in a fillet knife style (which will only be a partial tang).

[crashdive123]

Looking forward to your progress. Don,t hesitate to ask if you have questions along the way.

[rebel]

Hey those first two pictures are the "Alaska Bush Knife"!

God rust her soul.

You lost it? Drop and give me a 1000!

[canid]

when possible, go for a longer tang. not only will the tang be more secure, but the blade will be shorter, resulting in less leverage against the tang, reducing the stress from both ends.

4" is fine for a hidden tang if your handle material is strong and your glueup is good whether you pin it into the handle or not, and i've done shorter.

what i like to do with partial tang knives is what i've seen in sgian dubh knives (and started doing in my own), which is to gring notches in the sides which the glue will then fill and give a very secure bond that can't slip wtihout the handle or glue failing. if you coupled that with one or two pins through a strong part of the tang and handle then you're sure to have a union that is as strong as the handle material or the shoulder where the blade transitions to tang.

if you're really confident in your hande construction and glueup, you can certainly go shorter. you have a lot of room to play, as i'm sure you know.

[JPGreco]

well, I'm not 100% sure how I'm gonna approach it. I'm sick right now, so I haven't really been thinking about it.

Not sure if I'm gonna shoulder the blade, since after i remove the teeth and shape it, it will be about 3/4 of an inch. I can bury that in a grip easily, so no need to grind it down any less. As for handle material, first shot will most likely be some kind of hardwood, whatever we have laying around.

I have no idea what kind of metal the blade is either, so I'm not gonna try to heat treat it, just shape it and make a handle for now.

[crashdive123]

Just do not let the strrl get hot and you'll be fine.

[canid]

yeah; at at those dimmensions you could get a full width tang into a comfortable handle just fine, so just go with what first feels, and secondly looks best to you.

if you don't want to have to gamble on heat treatment do as Crash says and don't let it get hot. any time it's too hot for bare skin cool it in some water. the hardness should stay as-is.

[JPGreco]

You guys mean don't let it get to hot from the friction of the sander and grinder right?

[Ted]

Yeah, to be on the safe side dip in water after every few passes on the grinder.

These are sawz-all blades and they are shaving sharp!

I read some place "Sawz-All" brand blades are L6.

[JPGreco]

Awesome, thanks Ted. I saw your thread about making them, thats one of the reasons I'm skipping any type of heat treating for this attempt. How well have those kept their edge or do you not use them much?

In reality, I know the blade should be treated again since they can get really hot to the point they discolor when being used heavily, but for basically test metal, I don't need to worry about it.

Hopefully I'll get a chance to try to shape it this week. I still need to do a bit of xmas shopping, so we'll see.

[crashdive123]

In reality, I know the blade should be treated again since they can get really hot to the point they discolor when being used heavily, but for basically test metal, I don't need to worry about it.

Hopefully I'll get a chance to try to shape it this week. I still need to do a bit of xmas shopping, so we'll see.

Do not let it get to the point where the metal changes color. If you do, you have changed the temper of the steel. Keep a small bucket of water next to you and dunk the steel in it periodically to keep it cool. as you are grinding the steel, keep it moving. If you go too slow you will heat the steel.

[Ted]

Awesome, thanks Ted. I saw your thread about making them, thats one of the reasons I'm skipping any type of heat treating for this attempt. How well have those kept their edge or do you not use them much?

I kinda heat treated them. I heated them with a burnzomatic on the stove burner, whith the buner on high, till they were as hot as I could get them. Then quenched in water. Still had a little flex to them so I just skipped temper. I've never used the one with antler. I gave the other to a freind and he made it his official garage kinfe. I ask him today how it was. He said he's cut plenty of hoses and such and hasn't needed to sharpen it yet.

(hope the real knife makers aren't crinching too bad!)

[klkak]

You lost it? Drop and give me a 1000!

No I didn't lose it. I sacrificed it to save my life.

[Rick]

Yeah, it's hard to cut yourself loose when you're all tangled up with water.

[JPGreco]

Bumping for one question before I dive in:

Do I have to anneal hot rolled steel flat stock? It seems pretty soft right now, and since hot roll basically is annealed from the factory (Heated, rolled, air cooled) it seems like I don't have to do it. The steel is 1070/1080 HR from Admiral Steel.

I mean, it seems softer than the chisels I sharpened on the belt sander the other day...


I have 60" of steel to work with (at 1" wide and 1/8" thick) so I'm gonna give a couple of styles a shot. The handles will be made of oak to start since I have some laying around.

I only ask because I don't have the belt sander with me at the moment to try. If I did, I would just see how well it worked.

[crashdive123]

When you bought if it was HRA or HR-A 1070/1080, the A stands for annealed. If you are unsure, drill it with a regular drill bit. If it's annealed you will be able to get through it. If it is hardened, you will need a carbide bit.

[Camp10]

Bumping for one question before I dive in:

Do I have to anneal hot rolled steel flat stock? It seems pretty soft right now, and since hot roll basically is annealed from the factory (Heated, rolled, air cooled) it seems like I don't have to do it. The steel is 1070/1080 HR from Admiral Steel.

I mean, it seems softer than the chisels I sharpened on the belt sander the other day...


I have 60" of steel to work with (at 1" wide and 1/8" thick) so I'm gonna give a couple of styles a shot. The handles will be made of oak to start since I have some laying around.

I only ask because I don't have the belt sander with me at the moment to try. If I did, I would just see how well it worked.

It isnt annealed..hot rolled is in the normalized state. You can work it fine as it is.

[JPGreco]

Thanks guys. After sharpening the chisels on the belt sander, I figured I'd be able to work the stock easily enough, just wanted to double check. Hoping to get some time to work it this weekend. As soon as I do, I'll get some pics up for sure considering I learned about 80% of concepts and procedure on this site.

[Camp10]

Great! Cant wait to see your work.