Winter fire-what could I have done better?

[Walkman]

I went on a little "survival practice hike" this weekend. I wanted to try out my new hiking gear and use my new survival pack to see how it worked.

After hiking for a while, I found a grove of trees off the trail about 15 yards and wanted to work on my fire skills. I've never had much of a problem getting a good fire in the summer, but have been batting zero in the winter.

Weather was a factor. We've had some good snow up in the mountains, but we had a freak warm day (back to sub-zero temps again, tho'), and everything was soaking wet from the thaw. I collected the most dead, dry wood I could find, but it was still pretty damp.

I have those cotton ball/vaseline fire starters wrapped in tin foil. I laid open the foil as a shield against the wet ground, lit the cotton ball and started laying the kindling on top. I noticed that the wood seemed to be putting out the fire on the cotton ball, so I took off most of the wood and proceeded to lay small bits on the flame. Eventually, I was able to keep a small flame going, but I was laying one or two small sticks on at a time. It never reached any spot where I could start laying serious fuel to get a big enough fire to cook or boil water. Wind really wasn't a factor.

I also tried to use my new magnesium starter. I had a lot of trouble getting anything scraped off, especially in the quantities they showed on the packaging. Any one have any tips on this?

It really bugs me that I haven't been able to get a fire going on any of my winter outings. This is a skill I really want to master.

[Elkchsr]

There was still far to much water in your wood (there is about 100 degrees between water being totally gone and ignition)

The best time to find starter if you’re walking along, is when you’re walking along

I've carried this material for an hour before finding a suitable place with enough larger material to get a good fire going

First off, you need to put some sticks (any thing works) between the ground and where your fire is going to be. Make sure it is laid fairly tight and if you have to put down a second layer to achieve a good barrier, so be it (I think your tin foil was drawing to much heat away from your fire to get any thing of substance

The best place to collect this dry material when things are a little damp is the small dead twigs growing in close to the trunk of evergreens

If the twigs look dead and don't readily just snap off when pried sideways, they are still to green and thus hold to much water to be of any use

Another even better source of firable wood is an old dead evergreen stump with signs of heavy pitch imbedded in the wood itself, tear or break off what you can, generally you can light this stuff with a match or lighter

Most people when starting a fire are very conservative on the amount of tinder material they put down, if you want to get a good fire going in a short time, this is not the place to skimp

It’s good to even have extra to add to your new fire to keep the heat up enough to get your larger fuels to ignite

What you’re ultimately after when starting a fire in wet areas is coals, a good coal base is the magic to the whole operation

If you have to burn up 50 lbs of tinder to get a little coal going and you have plenty of material around to make this happen, just do it

If you have more problems, let me know, there is a whole other science to what and why fire is what it is

If you understand it to the molecular level, it gets pretty easy to get them going

Maybe I’ll put a thread up in a couple days on how all this works

Hope there was some help here for you... :)

[Walkman]

Thanks, I didn't think that the foil would draw away heat.

Unfortunately, I was in a spot where there were no evergreens. The mountains I was hiking have some evergreen up in the higher spots, but not near the trail I happened to be on. Next time, I'll keep going until I find an area with some pine.

I'd be very interested in learning more about the science of this. Like I said, I really want to master this.

[canid]

generaly, any wood which is not rotten to the boint of being punky and still snaps easily will be dry enough to burn easily if it is fine enough.

twigs which are dead and still attatched to the parent shrub/tree will often fit the bill. some of the best advice i've heard for starting a fire in wet conditions is not to even try lighting it untill you have everything you need for an overkill firelay, including all stages of fuel ready to hand. in this spirit, i typicaly lay up everything short of the main fuel.

you want a few inches between your starter/tinder and the fine wood/twigs you hope it to ignite. the flame will then have a good change to establish and draw in air and as the flame rises, it will lick your small fuel untill it kindles, in turn creating enough heat to start the surrounding and overhead fule. as this burns, larger fuel can be placed above. it will collapse into the center of the lay and become a bed of embers which will hold a moderate heat for several min. to over an hour, depending on the size of the dry fuel. this can be added to with more volume of small fuel in increase it's bulk. as you place main fuel over this you can 'troll' the embers by blowing on them, vastly increasing the temps, generaly enough to burn into your main fuel.

it's not always so easy when seemingly everything is wet, but this is a good start.

further measures are learning to find and recognize dry fuel in wet conditions. in addition to tree pitch/resin, you can often find knots of rotting conifers [branches broken off of main trunks, where the node breaks off with the branch]. these are generaly full of terpines [volotile resins wich burn easily] and add a hot burning chemical fuel to your fire sets. they can often be added to even a weak fire while considerably damp and still burn.

[carcajou garou]

I always split/open up any wood/sticks/branches that I will be using as kindling, even wet wood is dry inside.
Accumulate enough dry tinder and kindling to do the job, later as you get proficient start using less.
Get all the larger sticks/wood your going to need for the first while assembled before starting the fire...better than running around gathering when it does take off.
Lift fire off wet ground/snow if needed, or dig down to earth.
Cotton balls/vaseline are OK; you can add extra tinder (dry grasses, birch bark, catail fuzz, dryer lint, fat wood etc..) if needed but it was OK.
allow spaces on top for air to circulate (one of the 3 parts of fire).
I use a rasp to render the magnesium bar to fillings and store it in a 35mm film can for later use, I do this at home in spare time.
Keep on trying:)

[Rick]

Take the cotton balls out of the foil and put them in a 35mm film canister. That gives you an easy access multi-use item. You can use the petroleum for things like chapped lips or chafed spots.

The guys are right on the mark. You want to spent 80 percent of your time gather your wood and 20 percent making the fire. Have lots of wood on hand.

You said you laid kindling on top of the cotton balls and that was probably your second mistake. Put down a wood bed as Elkchsr suggested and gather as much tinder as you can. You want that cotton ball inside the tinder. You start the cotton ball, the cotton ball starts the tinder the tinder starts the kindling and so on. Build up to solid wood.

Canid was so on the mark about gathering tinder as you walk. I hit just about every birch tree I pass and peel a little here and there until I have more than enough tinder to get a fire going. Even in the rain, the base of large trees can sometimes still be dry so look around them as you pass them by and harvest any tinder or dry twigs that might be laying there. Especially true beneath spruce because they are so thick they often shed water in even a heavy rain. I've found a some really dry pine needles beneath a big spruce in the middle of a downpour.

Keep adjusting and let us know how you do.

You might also splint your wood as carcajou garou suggested or do a search on here for fuzz sticks. Either one will get you dry wood.

[canid]

that was elkchsr's tip, though good practice indeed.

[Rick]

Ooops. Mea Culpa.

[canid]

i've got bags and bags of cattail, cottonwood fluff, paperbark, etc all over the house. i've usualy still got some from a previous hike in my pack. it's nice stuff to have already dry if you can.

[Rick]

Something else I thought of. During a period of freeze and thaw or cold soaking rain be careful about judging the dryness of wood by whether it will snap or not. If the temperature is going down and the wood is soaked that snap might be ice forming inside the stick. I learned that one the hard way once upon a time.

I always carry some cotton cloth with me for char cloth. You can usually scape any cotton material and get enough fluff off of it to use as tinder.

[MCBushbaby]

Have to make sure the tinder is dry (dead). If it's moist on the outside 'cause of the thaw, make a feather stick from it. That should take care of it.

[Sarge47]

My wife thinks I'm nuts!(go figure.:o) I have her save all our "dryer lint". Scrape off some Mag. shavings into it and a few good strokes with your knife, or whatever, and you should be alright. Also listen up to the other advice you've been getting here!:cool:

[Elkchsr]

As Mitch stated, a feather or fuzz stick works well, you should have a number of these and don't depend on just one, a small pile works best

One of the other things I forgot to mention, don't get in a hurry, patience is the key

Those who get in a hurry, tend to

Not put enough tinder down to start
Knock your new fire around and put it out as you work to get it going
Put to big of fuel on before your fires got enough heat start the larger stuff
Pick at your new entity until you kill it because it hasn't had a chance to grow big enough

[RBB]

I went on a little "survival practice hike" this weekend. I wanted to try out my new hiking gear and use my new survival pack to see how it worked.

After hiking for a while, I found a grove of trees off the trail about 15 yards and wanted to work on my fire skills. I've never had much of a problem getting a good fire in the summer, but have been batting zero in the winter.

Weather was a factor. We've had some good snow up in the mountains, but we had a freak warm day (back to sub-zero temps again, tho'), and everything was soaking wet from the thaw. I collected the most dead, dry wood I could find, but it was still pretty damp.

I have those cotton ball/vaseline fire starters wrapped in tin foil. I laid open the foil as a shield against the wet ground, lit the cotton ball and started laying the kindling on top. I noticed that the wood seemed to be putting out the fire on the cotton ball, so I took off most of the wood and proceeded to lay small bits on the flame. Eventually, I was able to keep a small flame going, but I was laying one or two small sticks on at a time. It never reached any spot where I could start laying serious fuel to get a big enough fire to cook or boil water. Wind really wasn't a factor.

I also tried to use my new magnesium starter. I had a lot of trouble getting anything scraped off, especially in the quantities they showed on the packaging. Any one have any tips on this?

It really bugs me that I haven't been able to get a fire going on any of my winter outings. This is a skill I really want to master.

Never had any luck with those magnesium things. I am pretty good at starting fires, once winning a bet - getting a fire started in the Olympic Rain Forest (not an easy proposition).

If you have any birch around, fires are no problem. Even old wet bark will go for you, if you prepare it properly. Cut it into small pieces, and if it is wet or damp, delaminate it.

If you have any evergreens around, break off the small dead twigs at the base of the trees. If they are wet, scrape off the bark, and even split them with a jack knife.

If you have large standing cedar or pine stumps, sans bark, whittle away at them, and split the pieces, until you get to some dry wood.

Preperation is everything when you are starting a fire, and you need to get enough tinder and kindling together before you attempt your fire.

In very damp conditions, you may need to hand feed your flame, twig by twig, until you get a decent fire going.

If it is wet or damp and you are using flint and steel, or twig fire starter, it is important to have some dry tinder with you. This is the reason for the "tinder box" you used to hear about in nursery rymes.

If it is dry, you can harvest the black fungus growths on birch trees and strike a light into the fungus. If it is damp, you will have had to harvest these growths before hand, or have some char cloth with you. The white fungus growths can be used if you char them before hand.

It is sometimes easier to start a fire with a flint and steel than with a match or lighter. Some damp mornings, I've had to resort to flint and steel.

Under wet conditions, a candle is a handy thing to have when starting a fire.