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flandersander
01-06-2008, 02:05 PM
I was just wondering, has anybody tried using a rose bush thorn for a hook? My wife bought a bunch of rosebushes and I was pondering if it would work. Does anybody have any ideas or have people tried it?

Rick
01-06-2008, 02:12 PM
That's a good thought but I don't know how you would use it. The thorns snap off the branch with little side pressure so you would have to remove them from the stem. Then you are just left with the barb. I've never heard of anyone using them. Mulitflora rose would be the wild equivalent.

EDIT: I was typing while Woodwose posted. Sorry.

flandersander
01-06-2008, 02:27 PM
I was researching in the internet and in britan the natives would take a rosebush thorn, pry it off the stem, and wrap it in mud. They would let the mud dry then put the lump in the fire to bake. I guess this hardened the thorn. Then, using very fine spruce root twine, they wraped it on a small twig. Then they tied it to astick and let the tide come it and go back out. they baited the hooks with worm and presto they cought a flounder or halubut, i'm not exactly sure. It looked like a fish that swam on its side and lives in the bottom.

Rick
01-06-2008, 02:44 PM
Sounds logical. That would circumvent the problem of them breaking off. For the coast I think I'd build a tidal trap and not go to all of that work, though.:rolleyes:

Last Mohican
01-06-2008, 03:19 PM
I have seen it done by prying off the thorn, using pine pitch or some other type of glue to attach the thorn to a small stick then wrap it together with some sort of small string or plant fiber.

I have even made fish hooks out of small chicken bones ( the ones that look like a check mark ), twigs, and pull tabs off of soup cans and soda cans.

Rick
01-06-2008, 03:23 PM
I'll be straight with all of you. I've tried that stuff, gorge hooks and what not. It creates the most incredible phenomenon I've ever seen. The fish all seem to rise to the surface at one time and laugh me off the lake. One package of Eagle Claw hooks please.

pgvoutdoors
01-06-2008, 03:33 PM
I've never tried this rose thorn method but one thing I've come to learn from my time fly fishing is that the wild roses around here are 10x tougher than garden/commercial roses. The thorns are larger and stronger and can make short work of a pair of lightweight waders. There may be some potential if given some thought.

tfisher
01-06-2008, 03:48 PM
LOL.............Rick's answer is best:)

and he is right on

RobertRogers
01-06-2008, 03:50 PM
I was researching in the internet and in britan the natives would take a rosebush thorn, pry it off the stem, and wrap it in mud. They would let the mud dry then put the lump in the fire to bake. I guess this hardened the thorn. Then, using very fine spruce root twine, they wraped it on a small twig. Then they tied it to astick and let the tide come it and go back out. they baited the hooks with worm and presto they cought a flounder or halubut, i'm not exactly sure. It looked like a fish that swam on its side and lives in the bottom.

Sounds like possibly a flounder

Sarge47
01-06-2008, 03:52 PM
LOL.............Rick's answer is best:)

and he is right on

In agreement here! Rather hunt at the store than in the woods, it's quicker, easier, and the product is made for the job at hand!:cool:

flandersander
01-06-2008, 05:23 PM
I've tried gorges too and and they didn't stick in the perch's throat. Do you know why?

Last Mohican
01-06-2008, 05:40 PM
Try using dynamite.

Rick
01-06-2008, 06:23 PM
Most likely, too small of a hook. It just pulls through their mouth. You may be ripping through them, too. Perch are a bit of a paper mouth. Very thin skin around the mouth. You might try playing them a bit softer. You could also try that hook on bluegill and see if you can catch any. They shouldn't tear as easy as perch. Also, make certain your bait is on very well and your hook is parallel with the line. In the picture below, the gorge hook is baited. Notice how the hook is parallel to the line? That allows the fish to swallow it. Once you "set" the hook the gorge will turn cross ways and wedge inside the fish. that's the second picture.

http://www.the-ultralight-site.com/fig8-17.gif

http://www.primitiveways.com/images/pt-toggle.jpeg

With a lot of practice and experimenting you'll come to the same conclusion I did. One package of Eagle Claw hooks, please.

Really, good luck.

MCBushbaby
01-06-2008, 09:07 PM
http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendid=140019386

The first video on his myspace (*shudder*) page shows how to use thorns for hooks. Even catches some fish on a tide line.

Smok
01-06-2008, 10:22 PM
I just got a new book that is on this Indian Fishing By Hilary Stewart www.amazon.com/Indian-Fishing-Methods-Northwest/dp/0295958030 (http://www.amazon.com/Indian-Fishing-Methods-Northwest/dp/0295958030) and it looks like just what I and most of you are looking for..

Beo
01-07-2008, 04:28 PM
I used to have a thorn hook like the one Rick posted but not made from rose bushes, but now I use the ones that Smok sent me and they're grrrrrrrreat! I've caught several nice fish with them.

canid
01-07-2008, 09:53 PM
here is a toggle gouge made from a rose thorn. they can of course be made from other sturdy thorns.

canid
01-07-2008, 10:57 PM
the cordage i used in the pic was synthetic [it's what i had on hand] but the principal is sound. this and similar methods have been effective for passive fishing throughout history. though undoubtably inferior to commercial hooks, the improvised equiptment you have always beats out the professional gear you don't.

Beo
01-08-2008, 01:00 PM
Here is a pic of a fish hook (fishook is the Huron name for it) made of bone, I'll be trying to make one this weekend. He has also made several out of wood but they tend to last only a short while.
http://img519.imageshack.us/img519/4954/bonehookzb6.th.png (http://img519.imageshack.us/my.php?image=bonehookzb6.png)
Doesn't seem like it'd be to hard but then again who knows, it said to boil the bone to soften it and the marrow on the inside, then using wood carving tools the guy makes these. While this one is a two piece tied at the bottom with old deer sinew, he has made several single piece and work very well.

Ole WV Coot
01-08-2008, 06:20 PM
If you might want a nice catfish and since they are bottom feeders you can always bait with something tasty like chicken guts on a sharpened X on all points and let it take the bait and swallow it, then haul her in. Traps are best or doing a little catfish loggin' and maybe get a big cat, turtle or snake. A supermarket just waiting for you to run your arm in a hollow log or hole in the bank. Whatever you get is served as Redneck Surprise.

Last Mohican
01-08-2008, 06:59 PM
Beowulf, I read a good article on www.primitiveways.com about making a hook out of deer antler. You might want to check it out.

canid
01-08-2008, 07:26 PM
noodling isn't my thing. gouges are great for passive fishing in that you actualy want the prey fish to completely swallow them. this is good for catfish for sure, as they will generaly just sit there untill you try to pull them up.

Jay
01-09-2008, 04:42 AM
I have'nt used a rose thorn but have use other types of thorn and carved wooden hooks
had some success with both.
The wiedest thing I ever used as bait in a real life situation was a rolled up piece of bus ticket. (Ground was too dry and too hard to dig for worms and damp area of shoreline didnt have any worms.) caught a small 2" fish and then used it for bait. caught 8 thilapia.

flandersander
01-10-2008, 12:03 AM
I made some this weekend and heres what I did. I took a thorn from my wifes plant. I then baked it on a pan for 5 mins at 345 dagrees farenhight. When it cooled (a few seconds) and find a small twig ( i used willow). then i cut a small slit for the thorn to go into. I cut the slit deeper at one end to make the thorn sit more point-facing-up-so-the-fish-gets-cought-on-it-better. I couldn't find any string or sinew so i super-glued it to the stick. I could have tied it but i couldn't find anything to tye it with. It works rather well but it floats so i need to use a rock or something on the line to weigh it down.

ATough
01-11-2008, 09:26 PM
If you get a couple medium sized thorns, you can lash them together with some line, it makes a very effective hook.

flandersander
01-12-2008, 01:59 AM
Oh you mean like a treble? I think i will have to try that. Thanks for the tip.

flandersander
01-12-2008, 11:30 PM
I tried the treble thing but the thorns didn't seem to look like they could catch the mouth of a small fish. I think an O-ring at the bottom would point the thorns vertical enough. Any other ideas on thorn hooks?

canid
01-12-2008, 11:42 PM
you don't want them to catch the mouth, you want them to be swallowed, as in a gouge. they catch on the softer tissues on the way to the stomache.

flandersander
01-13-2008, 02:45 AM
Oh. That makes sense. Don't you think that the line would but off a fish? Do you think you could catch a larger fish such as pike by the soft stomach tissues?

canid
01-13-2008, 03:22 AM
pike are notorious for shredding line [i use steel leaders as i do for shark and striper], but other fish do well. this is [in my experience] is best, as i've said for passive fishing, and is good for opportunistic feeders, many of which are less than discriminant.

flandersander
01-14-2008, 01:01 AM
So like a walleye or bluegill or something. I cought a pike today and it nicked the line in several places.

canid
01-14-2008, 01:36 AM
i don't have much exsperience with walleye, but don't they have lots of small sharp teeth aswell? if you don't have trouble with them biting through monofiliment then it's worth the try. don't they feed agressively through ice?

tfisher
01-14-2008, 01:17 PM
Thin bones work well for gorges like chicken bones, bird bones, etc. they are strong thin and hollow.

flandersander
01-14-2008, 08:33 PM
i don't have much exsperience with walleye, but don't they have lots of small sharp teeth aswell? if you don't have trouble with them biting through monofiliment then it's worth the try. don't they feed agressively through ice?
Yeah they have small teeth but we don't use leaders when fishing for them. They are smarter than pike, they don't try to swallow a hook, they just go for the bait and when they realize there is a sharp hook inside, they try to spit it out. A pike will chomp down and try to swallow the hook, even if there is a hook inside.

canid
01-14-2008, 08:47 PM
pike fishing i know, from my time in Mi. the lake i lived on had been nearly fished out of walleye, so i never caught one.

flandersander
01-14-2008, 09:32 PM
yeah that can happen

flandersander
01-15-2008, 02:30 PM
What other homemade hook could I use for pike? Pike really strike anything but i want something i just don't attatch hooks on. I want something that i can make and catch a jack or pike for you american folks, on. Like a bone hook, but something i can get anytime. Does anybody know of anything like that?

flandersander
01-20-2008, 12:55 AM
or something that i could make to catch walleye on?

flandersander
01-21-2008, 03:48 PM
Has anybody actually had any success on any of these things? i mean its good to know of them but in a survival situation, i want something that i know works. something i can catch perch on? walleye? pike?

canid
01-21-2008, 04:40 PM
of course they work they either are, or are an extension of the fishing techiques that invented the practice of fishing, they're just not as reliable as commercial tackle. in the spirit of trapping; this is why i recommend such things as the thorn gouges for passive fishing, such as staked lines, etc.

according to ray mears, poor people in the london area still used such a method with hawthorn gouges allong the thames delta into the 20th century.

so; i would say that it comes more to the techniques ued than to the viability of the materials. as for gouges, if it is small enough to be swallowed, strong enough to support the weight of and sharp enough to puncture the internal soft tissues of the species being fished for, is properly baited and the fish being target are prone to taking such bait and swallowing, the principle is unarguably sound. it comes down to how the method is used.

if you could find or make:

20 or so feet of somewhat stout line,
several 1-3' lengths of fie line,
several gouges such as the thorn gouge i made for illustration
and the bait;

you could in waters where opportunistic fish feed stake out the stout line, with the baited hooks on their fine line attatched at regular intervals and leave this unattended all day long, or over night. the measure of success would be the fish on the line [or absent therefrom].

Rick
01-21-2008, 04:43 PM
And don't forget to hold your mouth right.

flandersander
01-21-2008, 05:29 PM
thats right. keep your tung right and the fish will come. obviously people have succeded in homemade fish hooks. What i want to know is what type of fish people personally caught and on what type of homemade hook. thay are used because they work but what i want to know is how to work the hook.