PDA

View Full Version : OK.....I want to build a minimal "BUT SAFE" Arctic survival pack.



Sourdough
10-29-2010, 02:12 PM
OK......We either are talking about different levels of cold, or some are surviving with less and getting by alive. So lets start from the beginning, and build a arctic survival pack.

Step One: We need a pack/web-system/vest......we need some way to transport the gear.

Step Two: We need some type of sleeping bag (or maybe this is where I am wrong)

So let's just work with these two & then move on. I assume something has happened to my body or my snow machine, and I have to spend the night out. It 2 hours till dark, it is now 9* above and tonight it will drop to -14* Below zero. I can not walk because of the injury, I am above timberline, the snow is dry and crumbly and will not pack, and the snow is only 8" deep. Wind is calm (Thank God).

So all have is what is in my pack. So I am going to figure the pack at 2# to 4# for just the empty pack. Plus I want a sleeping bag of some type......About 5#....?

So help me out if you have arctic experience.....or I am so serious about solving this problem, I'll accept googled/Internet research information. NOTE: There is no brush or trees for six miles, no fire.

tsitenha
10-29-2010, 02:40 PM
For starters: do you use or have snowshoes? with you on machine or are you wearing them or not. do you use ski pole with your snowshoes?
Are you pulling a sled behind machine? or with you?

If you use snowshoes you can use them as shovels and clear and bank snow at the base of your shelter or break. poles can be used with a tarp as uprights.

Sourdough
10-29-2010, 02:59 PM
For starters: do you use or have snowshoes? with you on machine or are you wearing them or not. do you use ski pole with your snowshoes?
Are you pulling a sled behind machine? or with you?

If you use snowshoes you can use them as shovels and clear and bank snow at the base of your shelter or break. poles can be used with a tarp as uprights.

I should have not included the snow machine, because it does warp the decisions for the pack. I guess I was hoping to build one pack for everything, but let's assume this is just on foot and no snowshoes.

This is not about the act of surviving the night........This is about building a minimal "But Safe" Survival Pack for -14 degrees below.

I think Alaskan Survivalist is thinking more like being in the Knik River valley floor, and I am thinking more of being at the very back of Grasshopper valley as it drops in Carbon Creek.

Alaskan Survivalist
10-29-2010, 03:12 PM
What do you see the homeless carry? A warm bag rolled inside a blue tarp and a bottle of cheap vodka. Some have a woman to keep them warm but a warm dog works too.

I've gotten away from bags and shelters because my clothing has evolved to the point I don't need it. What you want is what I used to do and I still have that gear. I have a goretex bivy bag, a good cold weather sleeping bag and and a thinner synthetic bag I put inside it. You also will need something to put on the ground to keep from freezing into it and insulate you from it. I prefer air matress. A sleeping system like this usually can will weigh ten poinds by itself. I use rechargable hand warmers that are boiled to charge. In a sleeping bag you will be removing boots and it is nice to warm them up with handwarmers before putting them on in the morning. Clothing should consist of a tough outer layer but inner layers should be light and warm so you can just climb in bag wearing them. Again the hardest thing about this is getting out of the warm bag into cold clothing in the morning. A small stove should be with you. Even if you want to use wood you should have it for emergency. In either case have it set up and fire prepared to light before you bed down. Did I mention it is hard getting out of a warm bag in the morning? Warm coffee helps. Morning are toughest because you body has slowed down and all your gear that you a climbing into is cold. Forget about fire for warmth unless you can contain the heat in a shelter or use it to heat food to warm your belly or hot water bottle (a canteen will work) and put that inside your clothing or sleeping bag. The heat must be contained or you are wasting your time. I have evolved over the years from using tents that were to much bother to using bivy bags that could just be thrown out into the snow and now it don't even bother with all that getting dressed and undressed. I'm really liking my Swiss Army Volcano stove and a hand full of wood in a ziplock is all the wood you need to fire it up. Saves all that wood gathering and fire start easily in it. Still you may want to carry a small stove. I have an exponent F-1 that weighs less than an ounce and folds up about the size of your thumb. Days are short in winter and batteries are unreliable in the cold. I also carry a small ultralight butane gas lantern too. This will increase the time you can travel. I keep the flash light warm inside my coat. Snow shoes are must have. In the situation you suggest I would just start walking home. It won't be the first time I lost a nights sleep and if I had to stop sleeping in the warmth of day is easier and staying warm in the cold night is easier if you are moving. Emergency warmth like hand warmers and gas stove should be with you even if you don't use them. Don't take short cuts, follow your tracks out! One more thing dried foods are lighter and don't freeze. Warm clothing is most critical an where you should put most concern. I would have posted pictures but I have to fix my furnace that quit 2 days ago.

Alaskan Survivalist
10-29-2010, 03:25 PM
I think Alaskan Survivalist is thinking more like being in the Knik River valley floor, and I am thinking more of being at the very back of Grasshopper valley as it drops in Carbon Creek.

No, it is just not snowing here yet, well maybe a little. I have spent several winters in Hope back in the 80's. You know it gets colder at lower altitudes, cold air sinks and I'm further North and further inland. I just don't change much except for clothing when winter hits. I hate it up north but with family there and work on the slope I have spent plenty of time in much colder too. My old computer is getting fixed and the guy I gave it too says he can retrieve my old blogs and I have lots of Arctic Survival outings on it otherwise you'll have to wait till it gets colder and I do it this winter. The river was all I have at this time but like I said, I don't change much, not for just an overnight.

Sourdough
10-29-2010, 03:41 PM
I guess the difference is you are going to walk out. And I am assuming for some reason I must spend the night. The coldest I have ever camped out is -33* Below, with no tent, but a good Sleeping Bag. That was 40 years ago, back up Cripple Creek in Hope, AK.

I agree with you if there was anyway to walk out, even walking all night, that would be my first choice also.

finallyME
10-29-2010, 03:58 PM
Here is a 4lb + sleeping bag rated to -40F.

http://www.westernmountaineering.com/index.cfm?section=Products&page=Sleeping%20Bags&cat=Gore%20Windstopper%20Expedition%20Series&ContentId=52

Sorry, all I got. It is expensive.

Alaskan Survivalist
10-29-2010, 04:03 PM
The real difference is that I don't do things different for every situation. I find things that work in every situation. I don't have 12 ways to build a fire, just one that always works. It's less to carry that way and you never know what you are going to get into. I have mentioned many times before I have no training, no certification, I'm not an expert and only relate my own experience.

Sourdough
10-29-2010, 04:09 PM
The real difference is that I don't do things different for every situation. I find things that work in every situation. I don't have 12 ways to build a fire, just one that always works. It's less to carry that way and you never know what you are going to get into. I have mentioned many times before I have no training, I'm not an expert and only relate my own experience.


Sir, I want to be Clear.......I am not questioning you, or in anyway challenging you. I just want to understand how you do it. I now think "For me" I will continue to do it the way that I am comfortable, so I am stuck with 22# to 24# pack. But now I understand how you get by with less weight.

Sourdough
10-29-2010, 04:19 PM
Here is a 4lb + sleeping bag rated to -40F.


Sorry, all I got. It is expensive.

I have a North Face down bag that I had North Face custom build for me long, long ago. They started with there "Raging Inferno" down bag, and added another additional 24 oz. of down. I think I'll dig that out for one of the "Arctic Survival Packs".

Alaskan Survivalist
10-29-2010, 04:22 PM
Sir, I want to be Clear.......I am not questioning you, or in anyway challenging you. I just want to understand how you do it. I now think "For me" I want to do it the way that I am comfortable, so I am stuck with 22# to 24# pack.

I did not take it that way. It is often hard to properly express things in type. I will say it this way "There is more than one way to skin a cat" and there are other ways that I may not even be aware of that may be better. There may be something yet to mentioned I may try. In context "this is what works for me". Sometimes all you get is tidbit that can be used for example trying the Swiss stove.

Alaskan Survivalist
10-29-2010, 04:26 PM
I would mention one other thing. Sounds like you will need a float bag if this is to be stored outside to fight condensation.

Sourdough
10-29-2010, 04:50 PM
I did not take it that way. It is often hard to properly express things in type. I will say it this way "There is more than one way to skin a cat" and there are other ways that I may not even be aware of that may be better. There may be something yet to mentioned I may try. In context "this is what works for me". Sometimes all you get is tidbit that can be used for example trying the Swiss stove.

One idea I want to try is: They make a emergency sleeping bag out of Space Blanket material, it is a fully enclosed bag, and it is very light wt. and the size of a small soup can. If a guy had two or four of them and put them inside each other, with dead grass, or leaves in between the bags, might work.

I would like to cut the weight, but I don't want to die. Although freezing to death is a fairly good and painless way to die.

Rick
10-29-2010, 05:54 PM
I have 0 experience in this area. So take my input with that in mind. For the bag, aren't you looking at the same qualities that you'd find in a mountaineering bag? The folks that do Everest use bags rated to -300F. Much more extreme conditions that you would generally find in your area of AK. I think you're looking at bags like the North Face Inferno, Feathered Friends Snow Goose or the Marmot CWM. Top dollar bags for sure. Some into $1000+. Of course, it is your life we're talking about.

But I think it's much more than just the bag. The clothing is integral in this equation in my opinion.

As for the pack, I'm not sure that's as critical as the bag and clothing. You have more options there than you would have for the sleeping bag.

I don't know if that helps or not and I'm sure you already knew all of it.

tsitenha
10-29-2010, 06:12 PM
For the type and size of sleeping bags that is being talked about wouldn't a pack frame be better too be able to stabalize the size and cumbersomeness of the rst of the items?

Sourdough
10-29-2010, 06:12 PM
I guess one option that I have not considered is "Only a Pack & Sleeping Bag" I never use first aid stuff anyway, and food is not necessary to stay alive over night. If I don't get the weight down, I'll end up taking only what is in my pockets, and leaving the survival pack behind.

Sourdough
10-29-2010, 06:18 PM
For the type and size of sleeping bags that is being talked about wouldn't a pack frame be better too be able to stabalize the size and cumbersomeness of the rst of the items?

Well yes, I built two Arctic Survival Packs about 15 days ago. One is a large day pack, and one is a small womans external frame pack. And they both came in at 26 pounds. But when I did the 13/14 miles death march last Saturday with the external pack, I added more food, gloves, a gun & leather holster which brought it up to 31.5 pounds. Which is fine for 5 to 8 miles, but did me in on the 13/14 miles in 4 hr. & 20 min. march.

doug1980
10-29-2010, 09:22 PM
I think all you really need is a good sleeping bag (which you have) and something to keep your bag dry like a bivy sack. You will already be dressed in warm clothes, so I think you would be set there. Take a saw to collect wood for a fire and or take a small stove like AS suggested with several ways to make fire. All that should be under 20# I would think.

Alaskan Survivalist
10-29-2010, 09:31 PM
It's not just the gear but how it's used. One mistake I see people make is to stick whole head inside sleeping bag and breath inside it. Condensation is the problem this creates. They have trouble sleeping with cold on thier face. A wool face mask makes it better but I take it a step farther. My clothing is layered and one of the steps up in warmth is when I add my hood to outfit. Mine is detachable and could be used in sleeping bag also. Not just any hood either. I use a thick wolf strip of fur around rim with a piece of wire sewn under it to shape it close to my face. This is a very comfortable way to keep warm air close to your face and breath easy. It's a bunch of little things like this that add up to comfort.

.

rwc1969
10-29-2010, 11:21 PM
I have no experience with arctic survival, but you said in the OP 9 to -14 and that is very possible and sometimes very likely here in MI at night.

First of all I agree with AS, a tarp, bag and a bottle would get me through the night, at least it did many a nights 20 years or so ago. LOL! Actually there was no tarp, just a bag, a bottle and fire.

But anyhoo, I think a tarp or plastic sheet and a heavy blanket or, if you want, a sleeping bag would get you thru the night even without fire. You can cover up with the blanket and tarp and you should not freeze in those temps. If you had a fire then you'd be doing even better. Just make sure to leave a breathing hole.

I have no way of accurately weighing individual components, but I'd say a standard 10X12 tarp, heavy blanket and firestarting materials; firesteel and fatwood or birch bark, would be no more than 10 lbs. If you add a bedmat maybe another 2 lbs or so? Add a couple pounds of food, pot, and 1 gallon of water and you should be up to about 24-25 lbs.

I can fit all of that on or in my FLC vest or Assault pack and that would add 4-5 lbs. more to the total. So, 28-30 lbs. MAX for 3 days worth of roughing it.

crashdive123
10-30-2010, 08:00 AM
I've gotta ask - on your 13/14 mile trip - why such a fast pace? Was it a test for your self or a lack of planning (gotta get back before x)?

Sourdough
10-30-2010, 10:54 AM
I've gotta ask - on your 13/14 mile trip - why such a fast pace? Was it a test for your self or a lack of planning (gotta get back before x)?


For me that was not a fast pace. I had figured on just under 4 mph, but it ended up closer to 3.3 mph. To me the problem is I am just getting old, and I need to start factoring that into plans.

hunter63
10-30-2010, 11:09 AM
I've gotta ask - on your 13/14 mile trip - why such a fast pace? Was it a test for your self or a lack of planning (gotta get back before x)?

I guess I was kinda wondering the same thing.
I'm sure that if you "had-to", you could do it, as in "I'm not as good as I once was, but I'm as good once as I always was".

I guess I'm finding the slower and leisurely, kinda a slowdown and smell the roses point of view work for me, and trying not to worry about it too much.

You see more stuff, and marvel at all thats there........, right?

Sourdough
10-30-2010, 11:22 AM
My daily walks are slow and exploratory meanderings.

hunter63
10-30-2010, 11:25 AM
My daily walks are slow and exploratory meanderings.

Gotcha......

Alaskan Survivalist
10-30-2010, 11:26 AM
For me that was not a fast pace. I had figured on just under 4 mph, but it ended up closer to 3.3 mph. To me the problem is I am just getting old, and I need to start factoring that into plans.

I have always been content with 3 mph but I can keep that pace all day and into the night. Few keep up with me after the first couple of hours. My last hike was slowed to 2.5 mph but I blew my knee out for a quarter of the hike. Accurate assessment of time and distance needs to be factored in to make good judgements to work within daylight, tidal and weather conditions we have. It is also good to know how much ground you can cover on a day after day basis also. I really think you are expecting to much. I've been out with enough people to know the people you used to guide did not keep a 4 mph pace in this terrain carrying gear.

BENESSE
10-30-2010, 11:40 AM
I have always been content with 3 mph but I can keep that pace all day and into the night. Few keep up with me after the first couple of hours.

Is this without stopping anywhere, AS?
Are you doing 3mph for 8-10 hrs solid, with a load of say, 30lbs?

LowKey
10-30-2010, 11:56 AM
This doesn't contribute much to SD's question. I know nothing about this, but was wondering why you don't take your first layer of outdoor clothes into the sleeping bag with you if it's such a chore to put on cold clothes? I assume your sleeping in your woolly undies. Is there no room in those mummy bags for the shirt and trousers? Or is condensation an issue there. Better cold and dry than warm and damp?
(I don't stay out overnight much below 35° and I have always disliked the mummy bags.)

Alaskan Survivalist
10-30-2010, 12:02 PM
Is this without stopping anywhere, AS?
Are you doing 3mph for 8-10 hrs solid, with a load of say, 30lbs?

No. This is my average speed with short breaks to cool down and I don't carry 30 pounds. I can maintain that speed with half that weight, 15 pounds. 16 hours straight is about all I'm up to these days and that wiped me out for a couple days. Realistically I can travel 20 miles a day with 15-20 pounds over normal Alaskan terrain on a daily basis without injury. Carried weight shortens a persons stride which is the critical factor to making time in this terrain, more so than physical condition assuming normal health.

Alaskan Survivalist
10-30-2010, 12:05 PM
This doesn't contribute much to SD's question. I know nothing about this, but was wondering why you don't take your first layer of outdoor clothes into the sleeping bag with you if it's such a chore to put on cold clothes? I assume your sleeping in your woolly undies. Is there no room in those mummy bags for the shirt and trousers? Or is condensation an issue there. Better cold and dry than warm and damp?
(I don't stay out overnight much below 35° and I have always disliked the mummy bags.)

Codensation is not an issue as long as that layer is dry. I mentioned this in post #4.

Mummy bags are warmer because they heat less space. Quality bags come in sizes to accomadate different sizes of people.

Rick
10-30-2010, 01:50 PM
I have an oversize rectangular bag. Obviously, I'm not sleeping out in -40F with it. My boots and whatever goes on first thing the next morning goes into the bag with me. Normally, that's a jacket because I'll have my clothes on if it's too cold. Anything I shed during the night is retained in the bag. Cold clothes and boots are the pits. The only thing worse are wet and cold clothes and boots.

Sourdough
10-30-2010, 01:56 PM
Cold clothes and boots are the pits. The only thing worse are wet and cold clothes and boots.


Try living in a tent on the Alaska Peninsula for 88 days straight, Aug. through Oct.

Alaskan Survivalist
10-30-2010, 02:33 PM
Rick, I have a large rectangular bag rated to -35. It's large enough for me and my wife that makes it a lot warmer. I love it but I don't carry it far. It stays with my heated wall tent. Serious back packers look at every ounce which is another reason not to have any excess bag. Just what you NEED and no more.

Rick
10-30-2010, 02:58 PM
Yeah, I have a silk sack stuffed into a fleece bag that fits in a sleeping bag cover. 3lbs. 5 oz. The big bag is for car camping.

Rick
10-30-2010, 03:07 PM
SD - You can pick up Little Hotties (the hand warmers not the girls) just about everywhere and they come in a lot of different sizes. The average temp is 135°F but they can reach 165°F. They are air activated so you just open them and wait for them to heat up. They last up to 8 hours of full heat. The hand and body warmers last up to 18 hours.

That might be something that could augment a sleeping bag when it's uber cold.

http://www.littlehottieswarmers.com/products.aspx

Alaskan Survivalist
10-30-2010, 03:12 PM
I have a bag that is only rated to 20 degrees but it uses all the features of the Arctic bags to have the warmth of a heavier bag. Using a bivy saves weight over a tent and that adds another 5 degrees to the bag rating. Add to that wearing a light comfortable layer of clothing that I can wear in bag and more weight is saved by clothing serving the dual purpose of more bag insulation too. Like I said the little details add up.

Sourdough
10-30-2010, 03:22 PM
Another way to go is with a "Elephant's Foot Bag" and a parka. We would use that system for spring bear hunts over into the Little Indian Country by way of Cripple Creek.

Alaskan Survivalist
10-30-2010, 03:23 PM
I use ones like these that can be boiled to charge and then re-used and activated over and over. I plan on surviving more than 3 days.

http://www.rei.com/product/608751

Alaskan Survivalist
10-30-2010, 03:35 PM
Another way to go is with a "Elephant's Foot Bag" and a parka. We would use that system for spring bear hunts over into the Little Indian Country by way of Cripple Creek.

You're almost to where I am at. Gortex Rain gear for outer shell to replace Goretex bivy sack and warm insulated layers under it and next thing you'll find yourself wondering is why should get out of this to get into the same thing without legs and carry the extra weight?

Alaskan Survivalist
10-30-2010, 04:05 PM
Think of it this way...Adding another layer to clothing to have it warm enough to sleep in is easier than having a whole other system to carry to do mostly the same thing, insulate you from the cold. If you remember one of the things in my kit was a stuff sack that could carry extra clothing in if I got to warm. I've spent a lot of time on the trail asking myself "why am I carrying this". The reasoning is more obvious when you ache all over.

crashdive123
10-30-2010, 07:56 PM
For me that was not a fast pace. I had figured on just under 4 mph, but it ended up closer to 3.3 mph. To me the problem is I am just getting old, and I need to start factoring that into plans.

Gotcha - I guess I was thinking more of a leisurely, sight seeing hike. The last hike I did was about 6 miles. I probably took three hours for the first half and then less than an hour for the last half. More interesting things to stop and look at on the first half I guess.

Tundrascout
10-30-2010, 08:17 PM
Timely thread for me as I'm trying to build a similar bag. Since I want a very light pack also, but wont want to be skiing with full arctic gear on, maybe I'm looking for the impossible. Did a little test run last night up at Independence Mine in about 23 deg., (Truck nearby for a backup plan) hope this helps.

I tried to combine 2 survival methodologies, the Snow Coffin and the Poncho Tent. I wanted to use the poncho tent because the places I want to go may not have sticks of the proper length. Here's a video for the poncho tent. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BgoqAtw-55g

As for the Snow Coffin, well, lets just say that if you cant line the bottom, you end up in a slushy muddy mess once it warms up inside. Even with an underlayment of a foam pad and an extra poncho, some snow/slush had made its way on top of things. Even with only 5 inches on the ground and piled up next to it, It did get warm enough that all that was needed was a candle and a wool blanket. This is the reason for no photos-my phone is still drying out. I ended up retreating to some dry cloths and the military bag in the back of the truck. I slept outside back in the midwest in 0-10 deg on top of a picnic table in nothing but a Military down mummy bag. It's my go to bag for temps lower than 40deg. The key is moisture, and how to avoid it. I think the next step is a mil gortec outer shell. I know guys who have been frozen into the ground in them.

On a side note, you were right Rick, Alcohol doesnt burn well in the cold, eyeing one of those volcano's AS has, saw some at drop zone last week. One thing is for sure though, the 1000Watt inverter I wired into the truck which runs a coffee pot/mini frydaddy/drill sure has been extremely useful.

crashdive123
10-30-2010, 08:21 PM
Cheaper Than Dirt has the Volcanoe Stoves (with canteen) for around 10 bucks.

Sourdough
10-30-2010, 08:27 PM
[QUOTE=Tundrascout;255648]Timely thread for me as I'm trying to build a similar bag. Since I want a very light pack also, but wont want to be skiing with full arctic gear on, maybe I'm looking for the impossible. Did a little test run last night up at Independence Mine in about 23 deg., (Truck nearby for a backup plan) hope this helps.


Do some research on the "Idid-a-ski" & "Idid-A-Shoe" they use an interesting system when it is -35* below, they put a waterproof bag, sometimes plastic between themself and the bag. Yes they wake up in water, but the bag is still free of moisture. And by the time they are dressed the water has frozen in the liner, they shake the ice out, and start running.

Tundrascout
10-30-2010, 08:28 PM
Oh, forgot to comment on those hand warmers too. Was reading one of those bear attack book stories about a guy who was so cold after falling into water that he had to start a fire with his teeth. Might be worthwhile to have one of those packets handy (unzippered pocket), just bite the side off and tear open with teeth.

crashdive123
10-30-2010, 08:33 PM
I've used a couple of those hand warmers in my 40 degree bag on cooler nights - toasty.

Tundrascout
10-30-2010, 08:33 PM
"Idid-a-ski" & "Idid-A-Shoe"
got a link?

Sourdough
10-30-2010, 08:43 PM
got a link?


Sorry, I can't find anything. It is either part of the Fur Rondy events, or it is part of the I'did-a-rod dog mushing event.

Rick
10-30-2010, 08:47 PM
Does the thermos/canteen/whatever on the volcano stove have a rolled lip? Is it possible a plastic cap of some type could fit over it? I hate that danged cork thing. Otherwise, I'd own one.

Sourdough
10-30-2010, 08:47 PM
OK, I tried Idida-Bike, and found it. http://www.ultracycling.com/results/iditasport2000.html

crashdive123
10-30-2010, 08:51 PM
Does the thermos/canteen/whatever on the volcano stove have a rolled lip? Is it possible a plastic cap of some type could fit over it? I hate that danged cork thing. Otherwise, I'd own one.

Not sure. I'll dig one out tomorrow.

Tundrascout
10-30-2010, 09:13 PM
Thanks for the link. Tons of races up here it seems, with the Alaska Wilderness Classic too. I'm more interested in getting to lesser explored places off the 7 roads in Alaska and back again without the aid of a life flight, lol.

Alaskan Survivalist
10-30-2010, 09:31 PM
Snow caves should be heated only with a candle and it is not supposed to be toasty warm in them. They are to be used to raise the temperature from -50 below to 20 degrees only!

Rick, just throw the jug part away, that's what I did. It's the stove and cup part that is hard to beat. I like my Siera cup so much I think I am going to try and make a similar stove that fits it only out of stainless steel.

Rick
10-30-2010, 10:55 PM
I'm sorry, AS, but I can't throw anything away. Whatever it is I know I'll use it someday even if I don't know what it is. If I can't find a cap to cover it then I'll find a plug that will firmly stay in it. I'm not easily beaten. Well, there was that one gal with the whip but that was a whole 'nother deal.

BENESSE
10-30-2010, 10:57 PM
I'm sorry, AS, but I can't throw anything away. Whatever it is I know I'll use it someday even if I don't know what it is. If I can't find a cap to cover it then I'll find a plug that will firmly stay in it. I'm not easily beaten. Well, there was that one gal with the whip but that was a whole 'nother deal.

You married her?

Tundrascout
10-30-2010, 11:10 PM
Just an FYI, the cork is there in case your water freezes, that way the lid doesnt cause the bottle to rupture on expansion and the cork (in theory anyways) should be saved by the cup over the top of it from being lost.
Tune in next week when I try out a -40deg down in a bivy bag.

Alaskan Survivalist
10-30-2010, 11:53 PM
That's one of the things that makes my old canteen "charmed". It does not freeze. It's shape and size is comfortable enough to be carried under my coat. It isn't all about the gear, you have to know how to use it. Little details can make it all work or bite you in the ***.

Artzi
10-31-2010, 07:55 AM
OK......We either are talking about different levels of cold, or some are surviving with less and getting by alive. So lets start from the beginning, and build a arctic survival pack.

Step One: We need a pack/web-system/vest......we need some way to transport the gear.

Step Two: We need some type of sleeping bag (or maybe this is where I am wrong)

So let's just work with these two & then move on. I assume something has happened to my body or my snow machine, and I have to spend the night out. It 2 hours till dark, it is now 9* above and tonight it will drop to -14* Below zero. I can not walk because of the injury, I am above timberline, the snow is dry and crumbly and will not pack, and the snow is only 8" deep. Wind is calm (Thank God).

So all have is what is in my pack. So I am going to figure the pack at 2# to 4# for just the empty pack. Plus I want a sleeping bag of some type......About 5#....?

So help me out if you have arctic experience.....or I am so serious about solving this problem, I'll accept googled/Internet research information. NOTE: There is no brush or trees for six miles, no fire.

Hi Sourdough,

Here is some thoughts regarding your questions. This is how I would do it and I think most of my fellow Scandinavians: :santa:

Step One:

Well you are not really going anywhere before night, right? :cowboy: You have carried your stuff there somehow, so any bag you feel comfortable with (backbag maybe?) for moving your stuff is just fine.

Hopefully in your bag there is either tent, bivi, tarp or shovel to make somekind of shelter, even pit in snow is better than nothing. That temperature is not very bad, so we are more worried about the wind even (yes thank God!) it is calm, but it sounds that you are in area where weather can change very quickly.

If you would need to move, we Scandi's prefer skis, but also snowshoes would work just fine.

Step Two:

Yes, I would strongly recommend sleeping bag. Because it sounds that you cannot dig in the snow, you would need sleeping bag (some prefer 2 or even 3 used as layers) made for arctic conditions. They are big and heavy yes, but it will be your best single life insurance out there.

Big + for any handwarmers! Even your sleeping bag will probably keep you warm enough, this is especially for your mental health. Injured badly in middle of nowhere will be scary and all little positive things will help a lot then. Handwarmers, warm drinks, snacks, any light, dry clothes (just even socks!), picture of your kids etc. all will strengthen your will of survival and instead of that nasty feeling of giving up, you start to see options to make your situtation better.

Some basic fundamentals:

- Arctic survival and survive with less is very dangerous combination to start with. You start with very heavy bag and end up to heavy bag (or end up to pulling a sledge) by experience.

- Survival in Arctic conditions means pretty much staying warm. Sweat is your great enemy and it together getting over tired is the main reason why people don't survive there.

Hope these thoughts gave you some tips, if you wanna know more feel free to ask! :cool:

Rick
10-31-2010, 09:29 AM
Artzi - You have to start posting more. That was an excellent post that covered just about all the fine points of surviving; from gear to mental adaptation. Some rep to you for that.

hunter63
10-31-2010, 09:48 AM
Artzi - You have to start posting more. That was an excellent post that covered just about all the fine points of surviving; from gear to mental adaptation. Some rep to you for that.

Agreed, good stuff, thanks.

Alaskan Survivalist
10-31-2010, 09:54 AM
If you want to bring a lot of stuff I have a wall tent and a sheepherders stove that weighs less than 50 pounds. At about 100 pounds I'd have a cot, 3 inch thick foam pad and -35 bag, a chair, lantern and enough food for a week.

All these things like fires and sleeping bags anchor you in one spot. If you are being looked for will it be easier to find a spot or a line left by your tracks that lead to your spot. If I'm in bad situation I'm getting out of it! Havn't you ever had to push yourself to your limits? I've had Jobs tougher than this that needed to get done that went around the clock in the cold. You work 2 hours and get a 15 minute break, plop down in the snow and try to catch a few Z's and get back to it till the job is done. I have pushed myself to my limits in the cold and know you work you stay warm. and maybe its because I've been a working man all my life if I stop it seems to take just about 15-20 minutes to cool down and if I close my eyes I get a lot of rest in that time and had to do days on end with just a few hours sleep in between and would be at the peak of day when it's the warmest I would lay down to get some hard sleep. The cold is like an alarm clock for me and when it starts cooling down again I get up and go at it again. I heard a docter once say that your body does not need sleep, it is your mind that needs it. I've put that to the test and found my eyes start burning after a while. Close my eyes every now and then and I can go days. Yeah, you become like a zombie and it takes heart to keep pushing on, thats what it takes! Been there dozens of times and they have not found me frozen on a mountain waiting for someone to save me yet. If you find yourself in this situation you are going to find out what you are made of. Having been there all I want is a little comfort along the way but I've done it without even that. Suppose and theorize all you want, that's how it is.

Rick
10-31-2010, 10:02 AM
If you are being looked for will it be easier to find a spot or a line left by your tracks that lead to your spot. If I'm in bad situation I'm getting out of it!

Just so I understand, are you advocating leaving a disabled snowmachine or other vehicle and walking to safety?

Artzi
10-31-2010, 12:04 PM
Artzi - You have to start posting more. That was an excellent post that covered just about all the fine points of surviving; from gear to mental adaptation. Some rep to you for that.

Thanks Rick! Usually people have already posted all the same things I would have said, so trying not to sound like parrot! :D

Sourdough,

If you are not afraid about modern technology I would also strongly recommend to add SPOT Satellite Messenger to your bag. It does not weight much and not cost a lot, but if you are not able to make your way out there, you still probably have energy to push button and get help.

Sourdough
10-31-2010, 12:15 PM
Sourdough,

If you are not afraid about modern technology I would also strongly recommend to add SPOT Satellite Messenger to your bag. It does not weight much and not cost a lot, but if you are not able to make your way out there, you still probably have energy to push button and get help.

I may do that some day, but for now I would rather DIE than use one. I think it would be Smart for me to use one. But is just not how I choose to be in the wilderness. Just like I don't like company in the wilderness, I want to be alone.

Alaskan Survivalist
11-01-2010, 02:15 AM
Just so I understand, are you advocating leaving a disabled snowmachine or other vehicle and walking to safety?

Absolutely. For every survival story where someone "survived" I can give you 100 where someone in the same situation walked home. Of coarse the guy that walked home didn't make the news. It's usually a series of bad choices that puts a person in a survival situation. I actually advocate better decisions much earlier. If you are in a bad place because your transportation failed wouldn't it make sense to make alternative or backup transportation plans rather than plan to stay there? Isn't that why you leave trip plans with others so they will come pick you up? Your feet are the last but most reliable transportation you have so I plan to use them and whatever is needed to hike. Is safety within 40 miles? I just hiked that last week in 16 hours. Throughout history people have walked over a thousand miles to safety. Do you know of the Lost boys of the Sudan and how far they walked? Stay mobile, stay alive.

doug1980
11-01-2010, 02:20 AM
Absolutely. For every survival story where someone "survived" I can give you 100 where someone in the same situation walked home. Of coarse the guy that walked home didn't make the news. It's usually a series of bad choices that puts a person in a survival situation. I actually advocate better decisions much earlier. If you are in a bad place because your transportation failed wouldn't it make sense to make alternative or backup transportation plans rather than plan to stay there? Isn't that why you leave trip plans with others so they will come pick you up? Your feet are the last but most reliable transportation you have so I plan to use them and whatever is needed to hike. Is safety within 40 miles? I just hiked that last week in 16 hours. Throughout history people have walked over a thousand miles to safety. Do you know of the Lost boys of the Sudan and how far they walked? Stay mobile, stay alive.

I agree that staying mobile and trying to get to safety is the best thing to do, but I think the scenario is what if you can't. Planning for the worst case situation is what most of us try to do. My worst case would be I crashed the sled and broke my leg. I can't walk out, so I would need to survive for days until rescue. I think that is what sourdough is looking for.

BENESSE
11-01-2010, 08:07 AM
I agree that staying mobile and trying to get to safety is the best thing to do, but I think the scenario is what if you can't. Planning for the worst case situation is what most of us try to do. My worst case would be I crashed the sled and broke my leg. I can't walk out, so I would need to survive for days until rescue. I think that is what sourdough is looking for.

One can't underestimate the incapacitating pain that might accompany some injuries. Until I broke my shoulder skiing, I couldn't even imagine it.
I often play that film in my head going through what ifs and invariably I come around to the same conclusion: You've got to have something to take care of the pain but not cloud your judgment before you can attempt anything seriously physical. Otherwise, you won't get too far if you expect to walk to safety.
My threshold of pain is pretty high but this was off the charts.

Alaskan Survivalist
11-01-2010, 09:55 AM
Enough bad stuff happens and you are dead, that's all there is too it. This is where good judgement earlier pays off big. There are consequences to be paid for being stupid. Risk must be weighed against those consequences and the equation changes out there. I have noticed city people take risks that I don't and once I've told them of the risk I hardly feel bad for them when they don't listen. One that happens most is the tendency they have to get right on the edge of a bluff to get a view. The view is not that much better but the risk is much greater. It seems people's greatest purpose in life these days is to pleasure themselves and will drive vehicles way to fast for the thrill. What people have to remember is you no longer have a safety net. eliminating the risk and the need for it is more prudent than trying to construct a safety net. There is some stuff I carry for the risks the terrain presents if I can't get around it. Gas stove, hand warmers, avalance probe, snow claw, crevasse rescue kit. If you are to have a safety net you need a partner. Solo travel is much more dangerous to begin with. I tried to relate some of the thought process I used in the decisions I made on my last trip. This is much more important. Gear is no substitude for good judgement.

BornthatWay
11-01-2010, 10:51 AM
Absolutely! Nothing can replace good judgement. It seems that no one today wants to accept responsibility for thier actions and that is what gets them in trouble. It does not matter if it is survival or anything else in life. I agree whole heartedly with you AS.