Global Warming

[Cori]

This is more of a question and a discussion.
Who here believes that Global Warming is ruining our forests, maybe even our planet?I myself have done the math, and do not really believe in Global Warming from our polluted world.The Earth is warming, I agree, but it's just nature taking its course.I am not going to bother with this thread a whole lot, because whenever I make a thread like this in other forums, it gets deleted for having no proof. I beg to differ. I am sure everyone has heard about the Black Plague right? Killed tons and tons of people.I think it was maybe a year, less then that, before the plague, a volcano erupted. Almost every "natural" disaster, like hurricane Katrina, has had a volcano erupt some time before it. I think what we believe is Global Warming is actually under-water volcanoes erupting, and they put poisonous gas into the air, and warm it.

Feel free to comment and talk about this :cool:

[Sarge47]

1st let me say that the only way you get deleted from this forum is by being a troll or a spammer, not for expressing your opinion! Next, I agree with you about your view on global warming, I believe it to be "political posturing". Furthermore, Michael Chichton wrote a Fiction novel about the falseity of Global Warming in his book "State of Fear"! While it was a work of fiction he showed many scientific facts that show GW as a false belief and his viewpoint was that there were billions of $$$ to be made in the form of grants and donations for research into this matter that motivated the people who endorsed this belief. However, you probably won't get very far with this thread as it will remain a "personal belief" one way or the other. Just my 2 cents.:cool:

[Rick]

Sarge is right. It's just personal opinion. I happen to believe in Global Warming and its effects. But you are correct, Cori, in your assessment that volcanoes have an important role in weather patterns world wide.

[Tony uk]

I beleve in Global warming, the earth is getting hotter due to toxic gasses like C02 going up into the ozone layer but i dont think that the main cause is what politicians say it is

its 4/45 in the morning here btw

[Sarge47]

Here's the way I see it. If everything they're saying about G.W. is false, then we don't have to worry about it. If it's true then we're all dead anyway so we don't have to worry about it. This site is dedicated to "Wilderness Survival", and if you fear that G.W. somehow plays a part in that then you should "prepare", and that's what we're all about here, right?:confused:

[Bladesypher]

Here's the way I see it. If everything they're saying about G.W. is false, then we don't have to worry about it. If it's true then we're all dead anyway so we don't have to worry about it. This site is dedicated to "Wilderness Survival", and if you fear that G.W. somehow plays a part in that then you should "prepare", and that's what we're all about here, right?:confused:

I guess your right. But it destroys land. I'm not sure of the cause it, however I think pollution from vehicles is there... So although this is a Wilderness Survival forum I think looking at preserving the little wilderness there is left today matters. Corporations are very much to blame for the destruction of land too. The Amazon is cut down at a rate of something like a football pitch a day. Well... I believe global warming is there and we shouldn't "worry" so much as try to do our part in lowering it, which I think overall will save more land and wildlife.

Global warming has also done huge amounts of damage to trees. Finding a good birch tree for a birchbark canoe is a near impossible mission now a days.
Global warming is also causing the sea levels to rise. And I understand what
you are saying about Volcanoes causing it, but its the volcanoes and other things that are causing what is known as global warming its self. There are reefs near Hawaii that used to have thousands of giant jellyfish thriving in them. A rise of a mere 2 degrees a few years ago killed thousands of them, global warming first hand. The seas' acidity levels are rising because it cant cope with the amount of pollution in it. There is a lake from which toxic gases rise. The gases are contained within the lake. But before the time of dinosaurs there were more of these fissures, they wiped out nearly all life. I think fissures like these also contribute to global warming. So my conclusion is that its there, but caused my not everything the governments make out its caused by.

[wildWoman]

I believe that the pollution and deforestation that humans in unprecedented numbers on the planet have been causing are in the very least a major contributing factor to global warming. I agree that the Earth goes through cycles that are beyond our puny understanding of how things work. The way I see it, there is no excuse for thrashing the planet to satisfy personal greed and/or consumerism. So I think even if human activity had zip to do with the climate of the earth changing, we should still live in a way that is compatible with the millions of other species on this planet. Destroying and polluting their habitat for the accumulation of consumer goods makes no sense to me.

[Rick]

If you think about it, we've only been stupid for about a hundred + years. Before that, we actually lived, more or less, in harmony. Had to. The good news is there has been a growing "green" understanding since the sixties and it continues to blossom. However you see it, I think it a bit presumptuous of us to think we can destroy the planet. All we can do is destroy our ability to live on it. A thousand or ten thousand years from now the earth will be just fine no matter what happens to us.

[Cori]

Cori's Biography:
"I love just sitting in the woods and avoiding big cities-my lungs are clean, I'll keep it this way."


A clue maybe ?

A clue on what?All I meant by that was bigger cities are unhealthy to live in because of pollution.Over the summer I went to New York, and it is very different form my hometown here in Wisconsin.

Anyway, you know how scientists are saying that we are polluting the air because of lights left on when un-needed, cars are causing pollution, that's why G.B is happening?What about the Ice Age? Did you ever stop to think that maybe this is just the opposite?Maybe we are getting closer to the sun.I'm not sure if studies have any measurements on how far away form the sun we are now, and how far we were back in 1950, but I am sure we are so much closer.

[Rick]

Interesting thought, Cori. I have seen studies indicating the amount of light reaching the surface is decreasing and has offset, at least to some degree, the amount of global warming that has occurred. Believe it or not, there are actually field scientists who measure how much sunlight reaches the earth every day and how much evaporation that sun light causes. While the distance between the earth and sun remains a constant, as far as you and I are concerned, the amount of light (radiation) that we receive does vary.

[Cori]

I know this is a little bit off topic, but does anyone know what started the Ice Ages?

I honestly think volcanoes did this, because when volcanoes erupt ash blocks out the sun completely if it is very thick.Would enough ash be able to cause it?

[Rick]

Here's a wike article for you:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ice_age

[Chris]

State of Fear is an excellent book, highly recommended.

The Environmental Movement is mostly about politics and putting forth a socialist agenda than anything else anymore.

Also good watching:

http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=8917946

The thing with global warming, is well, no one can prove it. As Crichton shows in State of Fear, when you view all the actual data, temperatures have barely budged over the last hundreds of years. In some places they've even gone down. Where they have increased, it can be attributed to the Urban Heat Island affect (cities are hotter because of all the concrete and less trees).

Going back further, scientists can see a general warming in the earth's temperature going back thousands of years, long before we were driving SUVs.

The only constant about climate is that it changes, and it is arrogant to think that if humans weren't here it would be constant. So if the is warming, a tiny tiny bit, saying we're to blame is a pretty big reach. Methane from cow crap I believe causes more "warming" than the CO2 emmissions from all the cars on Earth.

Also, don't call it global warming, you must not have got the marketing memo. It is now called "Global Climate Change" so that they can blame both unseasonably cold and unseasonable warm weather on it.

It annoys me to no end that people blamed Kitrine on global warming, as if global warming forced people to live on the coast, and then the year after we had very few hurricanes. I guess the earth cooled the year after then?

The fact is, again as Crichton points out in his book, there is just as much money behind the environmental lobby as there is behind the oil lobby and research isn't free from the spectre of donor bias just because an environmental organization is paying for it instead of an oil company.

Too often environmentalists can see the forest for the trees. Take compact flourescent lightbulbs (CFLs). These use a fraction of the electricity of incandescent bulbs and last longer and so people are advocating getting them instead...

However... all CFLs contain mercury, and mercury is a horrible poison that gets into our waters. You can't eat many fish from the Great Lakes anymore because of mercury. Pregnant women aren't supposed to eat any fish, from anywhere, period. And yet, all the environmentalists ignore that mercury issue and instead just worry about reducing carbon emmissions. I'll take carbon emmissions over mercury any day. Until they offer easy ways to recycle these bulbs, and tell people not to throw them away, then they shouldn't be telling people to buy them left and right.

I think our dependence on foreign oil is a problem, and I'm for increasing energy efficiency as that helps our economy in many ways, but the overzealousness, narrowmindedness, and propoganda of the environmental movement is bonkers, and they could end up screwing us all over in the end.

[Tony uk]

Chris, Your Back :D

[DEET]

I have to agree that these things are all being blown way out proportion. What alot of these G.W. theories are leaving out is the fact that the earths history is by far much warmer than what we are experiencing now. Antarctica has spent more time as a tempid climate than it has as a frozen ice block. We are now seeing the end of the ice age and are moving into a warmer more tropical weather pattern. The earth will have even less land mass as it did in the times of the dinosaurs and prehistoric mammals. This scare the heck out of us because man thrives in a colder environment and suffers in a tropical climate, this is medical fact due to the ease of desease to survive in tropical environs. The coast lines will be inundated and people will be forced to move inland, that's why you don't build your house upon the sand. Hurricane katrina was not a natural disaster, florida and the east coast would have had no problem with that storm. Katrina was a prime example of what happens when all levels of the government completley fail it's people. From the presidency all the way down to the cop on the beat it was a complete and total failure of the system of government. Whew!! end rant:D

[Nativedude]

". . .Who here believes that Global Warming is ruining our forests, maybe even our planet?I myself have done the math, and do not really believe in Global Warming from our polluted world.The Earth is warming, I agree, but it's just nature taking its course. . . "

It is "evolutionary change" plain and simple! Just like when the dinosaurs became extinct. Next we'll hear that the dinosaurs were the cause of their own extinction from the methane gas that they produced, or because they were too large and that caused the volcano to erupt up in Glacier N.P.!


"I beleve in Global warming, the earth is getting hotter due to toxic gasses like C02 going up into the ozone layer but i dont think that the main cause is what politicians say it is. . . ."

Tony, how do you know that the earth is getting hotter because of these C02 gases? Could it be from all of the propaganda put out by the "global warming zealots"?


. . .The Environmental Movement is mostly about politics and putting forth a socialist agenda than anything else anymore. . . .I think our dependence on foreign oil is a problem, and I'm for increasing energy efficiency as that helps our economy in many ways, but the overzealousness, narrowmindedness, and propoganda of the environmental movement is bonkers, and they could end up screwing us all over in the end.

You hit the nail right on the head Chris!!

[Cori]

Thanks for everyone's opinions. I agree that it is the end of the ice Age and stuff, but what I don;t get is that everyone gets so uptight about it.Oh my gosh, the Earth is getting warm, wow, people should be happy, everyone I know personally hates the cold.

[Rick]

Boy, was I right about opinion. Perhaps religion and politics should be next (just kidding).

Why does anyone trust Crichton over anyone else? He's just one more well fed guy out to make money, too. What makes his opinion so special? Or anyone else's for that matter? Frankly, I'm surprised that folks would talk about tree huggers' opinions being motivated by greed then turn around and accept someone else's because it agrees with what they personally believe. I'm glad you have a passion to your belief but don't become so mired in it that you don't see the need to change your opinion if facts go cruising by.

Frankly, I haven't a clue what the true reason for global change is or that it's even happening. No one else on this forum does either. All we have are news reports and individual articles that state one opinion or another. We are simply choosing which report to believe because it's comfortable for us and fits in with our own belief. I'm pretty opened minded about stuff and willing to see how it plays out until someone mentions conspiracy. There is no conspiracy in the bush but if global warming is here and now and as bad as some predict, IT damned sure will be in the bush in changed environment and loss of critters to some extent or another. That could well equate to a change in our lives as well.

Either way, I do try to think green and do what I can like recycle, turn off lights, limit fuel consumption as practical and all those good things.

DEET, I have to disagree with you on Katrina. If you build a city in a fish bowl your populace had better learn to live like fish. It's not someone else's responsibility to protect my tush, it's mine. If the cop on the beat in New Orleans (or any other city) left his job to fend for his family....good for him. I would have, too. After all, they are only people just like you and me.

I'm plumb tuckered out after that.

[Elkchsr]

Follow the money in any of these drum beating scenarios (Spotted Owl for example)

Those beating the drums the hardest are collecting the biggest $$$

When the money dried up for the owl, so did the emergency...

So to will Global warming pass when the fickle population grows tired of throwing $$$ at some thing they have no power to fix and in reality has no bearing on their every day lives...

Some other catastrophe will fill the news media void then to draw peoples attention to

[Rick]

Wouldn't it be a true wonder if half the money and passion shed on global warming were used to feed the hungry in our own country?

[bladefrenzy]

I believe in global warming, but am not an alarmist. Common sense shows how we are contributing to the problem, over population, over development of lands, trees being cut down by the acre , rain forests are just a bit of what was here decades ago. I'm not saying it'll be like "The Day After Tomorrow" or anything, just saying we are helping to speed things up a bit.

I think we as Outdoors men and women should be concerned with this, to some degree, as it's the places we like to "play" that are gonna be gone later for future generations. Shouldn't we do something to help preserve it for them?

If we can help our climate to kinda level off by reducing pollution problems a bit what could hurt?

I agree with Rick about feeding the hungry, I also think we should start with our own. The foreign aid, but ours first.

I think our Gov. needs a total overhaul in these area, but that's definitely another topic altogether .

[Sarge47]

A reminder that discussinon of politics is Verbotten here!:rolleyes:

[bladefrenzy]

Ya, that's why I said it's another discussion altogether.

[Sarge47]

Look at all the responses you got to your thread here.:eek: Do you want to know anything about survival?:confused::D:rolleyes:

[Cori]

Look at all the responses you got to your thread here. Do you want to know anything about survival?

Yeah, I didn't think people really cared about Global Warming. Guess I was wrong :D
Anyway, I think I know a lot about survival though I could learn more. I have been reading some of the threads here, and also been taking that quiz every once in a while. I would live, but not very well.

[Sarge47]

Let us know if we can help you to get better, Ok?:confused::)

[granite]

A clue on what?All I meant by that was bigger cities are unhealthy to live in because of pollution.Over the summer I went to New York, and it is very different form my hometown here in Wisconsin.



So, Cori, you think you are all safe and sound from global warming and pollution because you sit in Wisconsin?

Um, don't get too comfortable. You see there is this thing called air currents and what is happening to the west of you affects, well, you. It turns out the Chinese enjoy breeding goats for cashmere sweaters, sweaters that are ultimately sold in the US but that is besides the point. You might think what the Chinese are doing on their own grasslands is their business. You would be wrong. (http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/specials/chi-china-cashmere-htmlstory,0,2722049.htmlstory) The hind feet of the goats kick up a lot of dust. The more grass the goats eat the less dirt sticks to the ground. Those silly goats kick up a lot of dust, so much so that the air quality in American cities along the west coast is filled with goat-kicking Chinese dust. Also, the air quality coming over the pacific ocean, right over Wisconsin is fowled by the Chinese coal burning power plants.

Perhaps you ought to take a gander into the forests of Idaho and Utah. You might notice lots of dead and dying pine trees. Those trees aren't dying from bad local air quality, they are dying because of air pollution generated in California, Washington State, Oregon and points beyond. The air tends to move and pollute. And your own wonderful state of Wisconsin is probably fowling the streams and rivers with animal waste from those lovely cheese-producing cows, has anyone check the nitrogen levels recently?

You can call it global warming, pollution, stench, whatever. Your hometown is really no different from New York, it is happening everywhere.

[Sarge47]

1st we get Chinese Spambots! Now we get Chinese goats messing up our air and their crummy steel for our knives...what's next?:confused:

[Rick]

See, it works like this. First, our cows belch up a sky full of methane. That crosses the Atlantic and settles in Europe where it warms the air causing increased crop production, Sadly, sulphur and nitrogen used in crop production becomes air borne and settles in China, which increases the growth rate of grasses used by feeding goats. The dust they kick up settles in the US where it lands on farms that can now grow more corn and raise more cattle and the process repeats itself. It's call Rick's World of Global Agro-economy. I expect to win a Nobel any time for it.

[granite]

Rick, there is a problem with your theory. Warming the air causes drought. Go back to the drawing board.

[Sarge47]

Rick, there is a problem with your theory. Warming the air causes drought. Go back to the drawing board.

Chalk up another one for Granite!:rolleyes::D

[Rick]

Pssst. Come here. (whispers) I let her win but don't tell her.

[Sarge47]

Pssst. Come here. (whispers) I let her win but don't tell her.

Ok, Rick, we beleive you, honest we do, ain't that right guys? (snicker):rolleyes:;):D

[nell67]

You really want us to lie here dontcha Sarge???


Sure I believe ya Rick,just like I believe in good ol' Santa Clause..........:D

p.s. never believe anyone who says believe me,because believe has a lie right in the middle of it.

[Sarge47]

Sorta like the word : "assume", huh?

[nell67]

:Dyes sir.

[Cori]

So, Cori, you think you are all safe and sound from global warming and pollution because you sit in Wisconsin?

Um, don't get too comfortable. You see there is this thing called air currents and what is happening to the west of you affects, well, you. It turns out the Chinese enjoy breeding goats for cashmere sweaters, sweaters that are ultimately sold in the US but that is besides the point. You might think what the Chinese are doing on their own grasslands is their business. You would be wrong. The hind feet of the goats kick up a lot of dust. The more grass the goats eat the less dirt sticks to the ground. Those silly goats kick up a lot of dust, so much so that the air quality in American cities along the west coast is filled with goat-kicking Chinese dust. Also, the air quality coming over the pacific ocean, right over Wisconsin is fowled by the Chinese coal burning power plants.

Perhaps you ought to take a gander into the forests of Idaho and Utah. You might notice lots of dead and dying pine trees. Those trees aren't dying from bad local air quality, they are dying because of air pollution generated in California, Washington State, Oregon and points beyond. The air tends to move and pollute. And your own wonderful state of Wisconsin is probably fowling the streams and rivers with animal waste from those lovely cheese-producing cows, has anyone check the nitrogen levels recently?

You can call it global warming, pollution, stench, whatever. Your hometown is really no different from New York, it is happening everywhere.

Well,EXCUSE me but really, that is not what I meant at all. I meant that my TOWN not STATE but TOWN is very different from New York City. When i went, there was piles of garbage all over, and here there isn't. I am not used to huge cities. And I never said that I was safe and sound from Global Warming and Pollution.So please try to get your facts straight before you assume anything. All I was trying to say is that cities that are bigger usually are more polluted. I know all towns have pollution, I am not an idiot.

[Sarge47]

I am not an idiot.

You're not an idiot, Cori, but you ARE a survivor!:cool:

[Elkchsr]

Look on the bright side (as I often try to do no matter the situation)

One of the great things if the extremes of global warming were true...

We will all get to practice our craft in another type of environment with out having to travel hundreds or thousands of miles to get there...

Pretty cool if you ask me... :D

[Rick]

Cori - Your assessment that larger cities are more polluted is correct. It's called the Urban Heat Island Effect. In short, the air doesn't move as much in a city, trapping both the heat and the pollutants within the perimeter of the buildings. If you are interested in learning more, here is a wiki article:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urban_heat_island

[Beo]

I don't believe in Global Warming, just my thoughts though. Load of crap IMHO, Greenland had some of their coldest ever winters in 2006 & 2007 (read it in National Geographic and Popular Science both mags covered global warming and talked about Greenlands winters) and the ice of the polar caps will always melt and more is made as this is natures process, other reports show that global warming is nothing more than a government scam to get you to do what they want. Sure cities are over crowded and pollution is high there but nature has a way of cleaning herself up. On the other hand I do think we are mistreating our planet in a really bad way.

[Rick]

We set a new record high today in Indiana. It's 67, the windows are open and I'm enjoying the breeze. Global warming anyone?

[Beo]

That does not mean there's global warming, just go ahead and listen to the government and one day they'll show you the stats on unarmed civilians and take those too. Al Gore got a nobel peace prize and didn't know what he was talking about.

[Elkchsr]

"Global warming" is a term, not a definition

I would go one step farther and say it's a religion as religions are defined

But that was a good post

[granite]

It's going to be 69 degrees F tomorrow. Yup, regular winter temps! No GW here.

[Cori]

It is actually beginning to warm up here, but it was starting to get cold a lot earlier then usual.
I also agree that Global Warming is a term.

[carcajou garou]

While everybody argues "global warming///climatic change"

We have to remember to change what we can..... and learn to:

Adapt, Overcome, Improvise

This is just to new reality.

[Cori]

Very true.
I am sure we will all be able to too, because, like scientists say(not that I believe everything)we obviously adapted to like, all sorts of stuff.

[Beo]

Okay, here goes my take on this global warming garbage. Personally I do not believe in it as the scientist say (such as the polar ice caps are melting and one day will be gone) sorry just don't believe it.
The Earth's climate changes in response to external forcing, including variations in its orbit around the sun (orbital forcing), volcanic eruptions, and atmospheric greenhouse gas concentrations. The detailed causes of the recent warming remain an active field of research, but the scientific consensus identifies elevated levels of greenhouse gases due to human activity as the main influence. This attribution is clearest for the most recent 50 years, for which the most detailed data are available. Some other hypotheses departing from the consensus view have been suggested to explain the observed increase in mean global temperature. One such hypothesis proposes that warming may be the result of variations in solar activity. None of the effects of forcing are instantaneous. The thermal inertia of the Earth's oceans and slow responses of other indirect effects mean that the Earth's current climate is not in equilibrium with the forcing imposed. Climate commitment studies indicate that even if greenhouse gases were stabilized at 2000 levels, a further warming of about 0.5 °C (0.9 °F) would still occur.
To me this is the Remy answer to what global is, no offense intended. And after much reading and study this is the debate in Remy fashion.

Over the past several years, public perceptions and attitudes concerning the causes and importance of global warming have changed. Increased awareness of the scientific findings surrounding global warming has resulted in political and economic debate. Poor regions, particularly Africa, appear at greatest risk from the suggested effects of global warming, while their actual emissions have been small compared to the developed world. At the same time, developing country exemptions from provisions of the Kyoto Protocol have been criticized by the United States and Australia, and have been used as part of the rationale for continued non-ratification by the U.S. In the Western world, the idea of human influence on climate has gained wider acceptance in Europe than in the United States.The issue of climate change has sparked debate weighing the benefits of limiting industrial emissions of greenhouse gases against the costs that such changes would entail. There has been discussion in several countries about the cost and benefits of adopting alternative energy sources in order to reduce carbon emissions. Organizations and companies such as the Competitive Enterprise Institute and ExxonMobil have emphasized more conservative climate change scenarios while highlighting the potential economic cost of stricter controls. Likewise, various environmental lobbies and a number of public figures have launched campaigns to emphasize the potential risks of climate change and promote the implementation of stricter controls. Some fossil fuel companies have scaled back their efforts in recent years, or called for policies to reduce global warming. Another point of debate is the degree to which newly developed economies such as India and China should be expected to constrain their emissions. China's gross national CO2 emissions are expected to exceed those of the U.S. within the next few years, and may have already done so according to a 2006 report. China has contended that it has less of an obligation to reduce emissions since its per capita emissions are roughly one-fifth that of the United States. India, also exempt from Kyoto restrictions and another of the biggest sources of industrial emissions, has made similar assertions. However, the U.S. contends that if they must bear the cost of reducing emissions, then China should do the same.

Still don't believe in it :D

[Beo]

Remy I need you to put it into lamens terms for me, maybe i'm just a dumb hick, maybe i'm misinformed, maybe i'll never know but if anyone is gonna tell me about it don't use a bunch of scientific banter (no offense) break it down to the everyday working man's words. The earth has survived flooding, dino's being taken out by a huge meteor (so they say) or the ice age, which we know happened. So i'm of a mind to think the polar caps are not melting away and we're in no worse trouble than we ever were. Help explain to me if you can.
Thanks
Beo,

[carcajou garou]

Remy, hi again:)

"we need to Sit, Think, Observe, and Plan..."

You forgot to add: "ACT"

your plan is just as bad as the unplanned actions that accumulated the messes that we are in now.
Inaction is the slow strangled death of a solution.

""Adapt, improvise and overcome" has for too long been synonymous with crushing, killing, invading, displacing, pillaging, soiling, eradicating, imposing, destroying..."

Your definition of it being synonymous does not mean it has to be so.
It means to SURVIVE... otherwise...dead men can't affect any solutions. We would have died off a long time ago or We would still be protosimians cowering in the darkness awaiting the jaws of death.

Thinking is good, acting is good, both in measure..
one without the other well...

[Beo]

And what exactly is wrong with crushing, killing, invading, displacing, pillaging, soiling, eradicating, imposing, destroying... to the victors go the spoils. :D Oh my did I say that out loud ;)

[carcajou garou]

Heck I came from the wrong side of that last post Beowulf ;)
but I don't hold no grudge, well yah!!! there's still time :D

[Rick]

Talk to some of the Alaskan folks on here that are near any of the glaciers about how much they've receded in recent years. Hubbard, Mendenhall, Kennicott, Margorie, Lampugh and the rest are growing smaller and smaller each year. It's something the folks that live in and around those areas in the fishing villages live with.

Ice cores taken from those glaciers and others demonstrate an alarming rise in temperature in recent time. I don't know the cause but it is happening. Glaciers can be "read" much like tree rings on a tree. They even capture tiny pockets of air so even that can be analyzed.

Your points are good, Remy. In trying to increase the yield over the same size ground, we've made some mistakes. Hopefully, we are learning from them. We are starting to see free range produce and organically grown vegetables. That was started by individuals with moral and ethical concerns about the use of pesticides and has spread to the corporations. I'll not debate the greed aspect but not every farmer that grows organically is part of the corporate world. Some do it because they believe in it.

One thing is painfully obvious, there is no final word on the subject. There probably is no correct position to take either. If there is, it's too well camouflaged by every side's facts.

[corndog-44]

About every 10,000 years the global weather pattern changes and I'm looking forward to it. As the cold weather areas of the earth warms people will begin to migrate to these areas. Global landscape will change along with new adventures for wilderness lovers like ourselves. Already the grizzly bears are migrating further north and crossbreeding with the polar bears...a new species of bears? What I fear more than global warming is nuclear energy waste.

[Rick]

Corndog, it will be known as the Wabash Sea in stead of the Wabash River. You'll have ocean front property and Chicago will a series of building islands.:D Could they be called the Great Lakes Ocean?

[Cori]

I am hoping that people understand this is most likely just another climate change, or the complete end of the ice age?

[Beo]

Personally I hope it affects the San Andreas fault and that chunk of crap land we call california sinks into the ocean, too many freaks out there. Smok and our other Cali's not included :Djk I agree that we treat our planet like crap, look anywhere and you'll see it if your eyes are open, but I do not believe that the polar ice caps are melting at an alarming rate and we're in trouble, as corndog said it could be the earth changing again as it does every so many million years.

[granite]

I do not believe that the polar ice caps are melting at an alarming rate and we're in trouble, as corndog said it could be the earth changing again as it does every so many million years.

Sure, those polar ice caps aren't melting:

From http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2004/11/1109_041109_polar_ice.html


The study concluded that in Alaska, western Canada, and eastern Russia, average temperatures have increased as much as 4 to 7 degrees Fahrenheit (3 to 4 degrees Celsius) in the past 50 years, nearly twice the global average. Temperatures are projected to rise 7 to 13 degrees Fahrenheit (4 to 7 degrees Celsius) over the next hundred years.

The rising temperatures are likely to cause the melting of at least half the Arctic sea ice by the end of the century. A significant portion of the Greenland ice sheet—which contains enough water to raise the worldwide sea level by about 23 feet (about 7 meters)—would also melt.

Temperatures don't rise 3 to 4 degrees in just 50 years without a little help from somebody or something. This isn't a little million year cycle. If you have waterfront property consider investing in a seawall.

[MedicineWolf]

On many of the walls here at the Feira Milano conference center, site of the giant United Nations meeting on climate change, Green activists have posted flamboyant posters showing a picture of Sen. James Inhofe (R-Okla), with a quotation from him: "Global warming is 'the greatest hoax ever perpetrated on the American people.'"
The idea being proffered by these sophisticates, of course, is that Inhofe is a typical American rube. Global warming a hoax! What a dope!

In fact, Inhofe is one of the best-informed Senators on the science and economics of global warming. And "global warming" -- as it's used by environmental extremists -- is indeed a hoax.

Yes, the Earth's surface has warmed a bit over the past century, but is that warming caused mainly by humans or by natural cycles? And can changes in human activity -- specifically reductions in carbon-dioxide emissions -- have anything more than a tiny effect on temperature? The answers to those questions, which are at the heart of the Kyoto Protocol and other attempts to force cuts in energy use, are simply unknown.
It is the claim of certainty that is a hoax. It's a dangerous one, too, since using global-warming theory as the basis for extreme policy mandates could plunge the world into a long-term recession or even a depression. The quote on the poster comes from Inhofe's speech during debate over the McCain-Lieberman bill that would have curtailed greenhouse-gas emissions in the United States, a measure similar to the Kyoto Protocol, which President Bush rejected in 2001 as "fatally flawed" and which still lacks enough ratifying nations for implementation six years after it was signed. McCain-Lieberman was rejected, too -- in part because of Inhofe's strenuous efforts as chairman of the Environment and Public Works Committee. One of the themes being promoted by Greens at this conference is that the American people want Kyoto-style measures to cut greenhouse gas emissions and that the close vote on McCain-Lieberman proves it. Wednesday's issue of ECO, the daily conference newsletter backed by WWF International, Greenpeace and other environmental groups, refers to "mounting anger at home" to President Bush's stance on climate change. "The American public is catching on to this charade," claims ECO. But several times this week, Inhofe has patiently explained the real arithmetic behind the Senate vote. First, it was 16 votes short of the 60 effectively needed for passage under Senate rules. Second, it was riddled with concessions to win votes. Without the amendments, Inhofe figures only 32 Senators would have backed it. Finally, the bill was sold under a claim that it would cost only $20 per household per year. A study commissioned by TechCentralStation and performed by Charles River Associates, the respected economic research firm, found that the costs would be at least 17 times that much. Inhofe heads a congressional delegation of eight Republicans in Milan. The others are Sens. Larry Craig (Idaho), Craig Thomas (Wyo.) and Jeff Sessions (Ala.) and Reps. Chris Cannon (Utah), Fred Upton (Mich.), Chris Shays (Conn.) and Jim Greenwood (Pa). There are no Democratic members of Congress here but plenty of Democratic staffers. I sat down with Inhofe at breakfast at his hotel in Milan Thursday morning. Considering the fact that nothing much has been happening at COP-9, the ninth United Nations conference of the parties to the 1992 Rio agreement on the environment, I started by asking why he was here.

"I'm here," he said, "to show that we are not going to ratify Kyoto."

That's Inhofe at his finest. Straight talk. No nonsense.
Unlike some other members of Congress, who accept the scientific basis for Kyoto but say that the treaty costs too much and exempts developing countries, Inhofe disputes the science. He knows the studies, and he recognizes that the tide has turned in the past few years.
"Virtually all of the research since 1999 has been refuting [the theory of human-caused global warming]. It is ludicrous that Kyoto can be as damaging economically as it is when there is no science to justify it."
New research, for example, has challenged Michael Mann's "hockey-stick" formula, which asserts that temperatures have risen sharply, in an unprecedented fashion. In fact, warming was worse centuries ago, before industrialization and automobiles. The delegation met Wednesday with counterparts from Europe, and Inhofe and many of his colleagues were shocked at the Europeans' refusal even to consider scientific research that casts doubt on predictions of cataclysmic warming. "They just don't want to talk about the science," said Inhofe. "They don't want to listen. They were Zombies" -- unlike "real people in the U.S." Those Americans, said Inhofe, "we are turning around" with the recent research. Some members of the delegation have been as forceful as Inhofe on the subject of climate-change science. For example, in 1998, with Bill Clinton in the White House, Sen. Larry Craig said, "As more and more American scientists review the available data on global warming, it is becoming increasingly clear that the vast majority believe the commitments for reduction of greenhouse gas emissions made by the administration in the Kyoto Protocol are an unnecessary response to an exaggerated threat the vice president himself [i.e., Al Gore] is caught up in making."
The talk of the conference has been Russia. Will the Russians ratify Kyoto? The treaty requires the votes of nations producing 55 percent of all emissions from developed countries. Currently, the tally is 44 percent, so the Russians, with 17 percent, hold the key. Inhofe says that some Russians see negotiations on ratification "as a way to make some money. They want to see how big the bribe will be." But, in the end, he thinks the Russians will reject Kyoto, for reasons of science and economics, just as Bush rejected it as shortly after his inauguration.
"I'm proud of Putin for having the courage to look at the science," said Inhofe, referring to the Russian president. "In this environment, it takes courage." Inhofe also agrees with the assessment that this has been a particularly depressing conference for the Greens. The plenary sessions are only about half-full, and "there was no enthusiasm in the room." Meanwhile, Inhofe points out, the United States is shelling out $4.7 million, footing the bill for about one-fourth of the cost of the U.N.'s extravaganza. But the price may be worthwhile, if only because Inhofe is getting his message out. He's teaching the value of straight talking to the Europeans and the Green NGO officials who, for a long time now, have assumed they can set the world's agenda. This year, with Kyoto on its deathbed, they're learning otherwise. It's delightful to see.

[MedicineWolf]

Weather Channel Founder: Global Warming ‘Greatest Scam in History’

If the founder of The Weather Channel spoke out strongly against the manmade global warming myth, might media members notice? We're going to find out the answer to that question soon, for John Coleman wrote an article published at ICECAP Wednesday that should certainly garner attention from press members -- assuming journalism hasn't been completely replaced by propagandist activism, that is. Coleman marvelously began: It is the greatest scam in history. I am amazed, appalled and highly offended by it. Global Warming; It is a SCAM. Some dastardly scientists with environmental and political motives manipulated long term scientific data to create in [sic] allusion of rapid global warming. Other scientists of the same environmental whacko type jumped into the circle to support and broaden the "research" to further enhance the totally slanted, bogus global warming claims. Their friends in government steered huge research grants their way to keep the movement going. Soon they claimed to be a consensus. Environmental extremists, notable politicians among them, then teamed up with movie, media and other liberal, environmentalist journalists to create this wild "scientific" scenario of the civilization threatening environmental consequences from Global Warming unless we adhere to their radical agenda. Now their ridiculous manipulated science has been accepted as fact and become a cornerstone issue for CNN, CBS, NBC, the Democratic Political Party, the Governor of California, school teachers and, in many cases, well informed but very gullible environmental conscientious citizens. Only one reporter at ABC has been allowed to counter the Global Warming frenzy with one 15 minutes documentary segment. I have read dozens of scientific papers. I have talked with numerous scientists. I have studied. I have thought about it. I know I am correct. There is no run away climate change. The impact of humans on climate is not catastrophic. Our planet is not in peril. I am incensed by the incredible media glamour, the politically correct silliness and rude dismissal of counter arguments by the high priest of Global Warming.
In time, a decade or two, the outrageous scam will be obvious.

So i'm with Beo on this, I don't believe this BS anymore than I do aliens abducted you and did an anal probe on you. :D

[trax]

That entire alien abduction/probe thing is still kind of painful and makes me blush so I wish you'd quit bringing it up ok??:D :D :D :D

[MedicineWolf]

Sorry bro, mine hurts every now and then too, bad... bad... memories :D And Granite, I know you just like to get Beo's dander up, kilts and treks, doing a real good job too :D keep up the good work.

[MedicineWolf]

Would anal probing by aliens be M. Night Shyamalan Signs :D maybe the aliens are melting the polar ice caps.

[trax]

Actually....it's not nearly as scary as long as I know they are aliens, LMAO

[MedicineWolf]

lol.......... LMAO oh crap that was good.

[Wildlander]

I believe in global warming because I did my homework. It was a three step process. See below.

HOWEVER, I also believe there are those who hope to profit from the situation and thus are promoting the bull**** we are all experiencing. Politicians in particular are using the global warming issue to promote themselves and their careers within government agencies. Essentially, the most successful people create their own job security. Same with people in the environmental agencies like the Forest Service (state and federal agencies), BLM, etc. Let's say you are an ecologist (I actually AM an ecologist). And let's say you want to find more funding for your projects (not me as I am self employeed). All you have to do is tie your project into the global warming issue by stating something like "my project will find solutions to our global warming issues and the upper admin (with direction from congress to find solutions) will fund your project. If it sounds good, it can be used to polish a turd and make your boss look good. Now you have assured your job, made your boss look good, and likely getting a raise. All because you hyped the global warming issue (regardless of whether you believe in it or not). And so there is a lot of corruption and lies out there distorting the issue. But global warming is happening and it is a warming that is FAR faster than the warming or cooling of glacial periods (ten to twenty degrees over thousands of years).

Step 1. Go find an old seed packet from at least 15 years ago. You cannot find a more non-biased source. On the back is a zone map - different colors representing different zones for plant growth. Essentially, these are temperature maps.

NOTE. The zone maps have changed dramatically the last 15 years. The rules for designing the maps have NOT changed. The temperatures have. In Washington State were I live, the maps now show I live in a zone that has moved up two colors (Ellensburg, WA). ALL of washington state has moved up at least one zone and three in some cases. Each color zone represents ten degrees.

If you are over 50, you will know that the sight of seeing palm trees in Seattle is a clear sign that something is NOT right!!!

Step 2. Personal Experience. I am not a city slicker. Example, I commonly go ice fishing in Eastern Washington. In the late 1970's and 1980's we typically fished (and hunted pheasant) in sub zero weather. Our temperatures were commonly 20 below zero. Our fish would come through the ice and flop twice before freezing solid. Fourth of July Lake is one I frequented and 18" trout were not uncommon in those days. Nor was it uncommon to have 12 inches of ice.

Today, we rarely have ice thick enough to go fishing! Six inch ice rarely happens anymore. I have not seen 20 below in the last 15 years. This Dec we actually had our first cold spell. We hit 10 below for two days. WOW! Wippeeeee! And folks will use this as proof that global warming is not happening. What bull****! The truth is, we have barely fallen below zero one or two days the last ten years. Our sub zero winters of 20 and 30 below are GONE!!!

Frogs come out croaking in November and I have to strip down to a t-shirt on some days hunting geese in the Pothole Region of Washington State. NEVER was it like this before. Now, now many of you so-called "outdoorsman" did in fact hunt when you were in your 20s. But you have not gotten off your asses in the last 20 or 30 years and are flapping your lips on how it USED to be but have no god damn clue what it is like out there today. Yes, we still have cold days. But they are NOT nearly as cold or as long of spells of cold weather as they used to be.

Now, there are a lot of couch sitting wanna be's who flap their lips. But clearly, times have changed and so have the temperatures. And those of us who have been a round long enough and are honest with ourselves KNOW we have a real problem. And the true outdoorsman that does not today sit on his couch (and watch TV shows to get his outdoor fix) knows things have changed. And for the worst.

I remember the days when a 95 degree day was hot for Ellensburg. I was a wilderness ranger for the US Forest Service (seasonal employee). Today we get to 105, 110 and even 112 a couple years back. NEVER was it that hot here before the 1980's. And only a fool (as so many are) would stick their head in the sand and deny. And that is EXACTLY what it is - denial. Just like an alcoholic or a drug user. You deny you have a problem. And so too most people wanting to admit THEY are at this very moment causing a problem. Their words are the likes of "phuck you, get lost, stop bothering me and let me keep raping and pillaging"... instead of, should I say, becoming RESPONSIBLE in the way they live and act?!?! Sustainability. Taking life seriously instead of screwing up the future for our kids.

Step 3. If you are not a fat assed couch potatoe, prove it to me. Contact your local airport and the NOAA for temperature maps that go back to the 1930's and 1920's in some cases. Our airport in Ellensburg, WA demonstrates a significant and rapid warming over the last 20 years. Others who took on this venture are reporting the same throughout the state of Washington. Example, nearly all of the graphs for 50 years here prior to 1980 demonstrate that our winters were in fact commonly 20 and 25 below zero (30 below every ten years) sometimes for weeks at a time. This corresponds with my own personal experience hunting and fishing in the 70's and 80's.

It is not so easy to go find out for yourself. I have given you some direction here. Still, most of you nay-sayers will just flap your lips and express your uneducated opinion. You are the ones who will NOT be in my survival network. You are in fact part of the problem and demonstrate poor judgment and reasoning. Certainly, that is not the kind of people I want around me when the SHTF. Everyone has an opinion. Few go out and find for themselves. Those who just flap their lips are NOT welcome in my group.

Wildlander
Ethnobotanist
Owner and General Manager ***** *****
Educated Ecologist
Former IT Consultant to Aerospace and Banking
Not a politician

[crashdive123]

Hey Wildlander - why not flap your lips on over to the introduction section of the forum and do a proper intro.

[Rick]

Welcome home. Well, alrighty then. I read it on the internet so it must be true. I removed your company's name from your post. Around here we call that spam and that can get you banned. Please do as Crash suggested and follow the warm air over to the Intros. Thanks!

[2dumb2kwit]

Ethnobotanist

Educated Ecologist

Hmpf....you'd think someone that smart, would know the difference between weather and climate. :innocent:

[Rick]

Weather: Used to introduce an interrogative. Means "if" and is used only inside sentences: I don't know weather to bring an umbrella or not.

Climate: A verb. That dang tree ain't that tall. I know I can climate.

[2dumb2kwit]

Thanks, Rick. I knew you'd understand. LOL:innocent:

[SARKY]

Wildlander,
FACT: in the past 11 years we as a planet have actually been cooling and yes prior to that we were warming.
FACT: Al Gore has made millions upon millons of dollar in this scam by buying up carbon credits then selling them at a profit while at the same time his home uses 10x the electricity of the average home in the US
FACT: Any scientist that has had conflicting data has been stifled by these scam artists
FACT:We now have the e-mails showing that these supposed scientists have been altering their data to show global warming when in fact we have been cooling.
FACT: whenever Gore is asked a direct question about the above facts he either diverts the topic or personally attacks the person asking the question
Do you think based on these facts that perhaps this has been a scam to gain control of our lives and bilk us out of our hard earned money?????

[Winnie]

Well I'm going to put in my two pennies worth. Yes I do believe the earth is warming, BUT
1) the Earth's climate is cyclic. It has warmed and cooled for millenia and will conrinue to do so. At best we just have to accept that, at worst human activity is speeding up the process.
2) You mention 50 years ago temperatures were considerably cooler, well I guess they would be, the world was coming out of a mini ice age.
3) Increased volcanic activity is more likely cool the earth than warm it.(have a looksee what happened to the climate before and after Krakatoa had a hissy fit) Particulate matter thrown up into the atmosphere exceeds the amount of greenhouse gases. This has the net result of reducing the amount of sunlight(and heat) radiating in the general direction of the earth.
4) Even if we do stop all greenhouse gas emmisions tomorrow, the climate will continue to change.

Personally I'm with WW on this one. I'm much more worried about pollutants poisoning the natural world. Acid rain, heavy metal contamination of rivers and lakes has a direct
impact on the world and I'll worry about that far more than if's and but's on the climate.

BTW, if you don't want to hang around with folk who don't believe in climate change caused by human activity, why are you posting? We've all made our feelings pretty clear.

[your_comforting_company]

I have to say I agree with Winnie. Not sure I've posted my thoughts on this before, but it's true that the earth has been warming up ever since the end of the last ice age. Global warming is propaganda. There are active volcanoes that right this minute pump out more sulfuric acid and carbon di/mon-oxide than all the major cities in the US combined
I'm much more concerned about chemical pesticides and mercury poisoning our freshwater supplies. Papermills and waste treatment facilities built directly on the Chattahoochee river have flooded and we've had that $h!+ float all the way down to our big lake.
A flood in '95 washed out a cemetery on the riverbank... that was pretty freaky when you walk up on a casket in the woods...

I'm doing all I can to reduce my carbon footprint, but aside from what little impact that has, I'm conditioning myself and my family to deal with climate change. I think the scientists call it "adapting".

[Pict]

Well I'm going to put in my two pennies worth. Yes I do believe the earth is warming, BUT
1) the Earth's climate is cyclic. It has warmed and cooled for millenia and will conrinue to do so. At best we just have to accept that, at worst human activity is speeding up the process.
2) You mention 50 years ago temperatures were considerably cooler, well I guess they would be, the world was coming out of a mini ice age.
3) Increased volcanic activity is more likely cool the earth than warm it.(have a looksee what happened to the climate before and after Krakatoa had a hissy fit) Particulate matter thrown up into the atmosphere exceeds the amount of greenhouse gases. This has the net result of reducing the amount of sunlight(and heat) radiating in the general direction of the earth.
4) Even if we do stop all greenhouse gas emmisions tomorrow, the climate will continue to change.

Personally I'm with WW on this one. I'm much more worried about pollutants poisoning the natural world. Acid rain, heavy metal contamination of rivers and lakes has a direct
impact on the world and I'll worry about that far more than if's and but's on the climate.

BTW, if you don't want to hang around with folk who don't believe in climate change caused by human activity, why are you posting? We've all made our feelings pretty clear.

Couldn't have said it better and don't have much to add.

When global warming is used to hype giving global power to people I wouldn't trust with my lunch money its a red flag for me. I fear what they will do with power much more than any climate change. This thing is the biggest power grab in the history of the planet. I am not a tin foil hat conspiracy theorist but the fact that there is a global movement that will result in totalitarianism and a smaller, more entrenched elite is as plain as day.

Their unified message is, "You are not capable of governing yourselves, you must be controlled through whatever level of force and coercion necessary for your own good." Elitists have been saying that from the dawn of time in their own local and national way. Now they are saying it on a global scale and it won't end well. Mac

[Rick]

I'm doing all I can to reduce my carbon footprint

Me, too. Maybe not all I can but sure trying very hard. Not being a family of excess, trying to reduce that amount of garbage tossed in a landfill, recycling everything we can, and reducing as much as possible the use of non renewable energy sources has always seemed like the right thing to do.

Very good post, Winnie. I would like to take a drink out of a creek without glowing at night, too.

[Winnie]

I'd just like to add that yes I do as much as I can to keep my carbon footprint small. I have no car, my fuel bills are probably the lowest I know, mainly because I'm a tight wad and take exception to being ripped off by huge energy companies who seem to be able to charge what they like. Like Rick, I recycle where possible and also re-use where possible. If something can be repaired, that'll do me.
It's a question of balance. I'd be off grid in a heartbeat if it were possible and I agree renewables are the way forward for energy production. There are finite fossil fuel resources so it makes sense to explore the alternatives and in the meantime be careful with your energy consumtion.

Edit to add, I'm Degree qualified Environmental Scientist. Don't believe all the hogwash Montbiot et al love putting out there to scare folks.
And don't even get me started on the IPCC.

[Camp10]

It could be, wildlander, that 15 years ago they werent messing with the genes in seeds. The hybrid seeds are designed to grow in colder climates. Not even the craziest of the global warming tards would claim that there is a 10 degree swing in the temps in the last 15 years. I dont think I would put to much stock in that back of the seed pack when it comes to climate change...

Read Sarky's post about the facts..I think there is more data and evidence to support his facts than your " I once had to wear a sweater to goose hunt but now I do it in a tee shirt"

One more thing..I was born in 1973 and that year there was also a summit on climate change but then it was global cooling they were worried about! It was the same brand of scientists making those claims then.

[crashdive123]

Time Magazine put it on their cover, so it must be true right?

http://blog.prospect.org/blog/ezraklein/global-cooling.jpg

Here is the accompanying article (http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,944914,00.html)

[Rick]

I was born in 1973

(Head slap) Man, I wear underwear older than that.

[finallyME]

I was wondering when someone would bring it up. Got to love trolls. :innocent:

So, lets stick to the topic at hand and not deviate on worthless ventures. Is the Globe warming? This isn't the question to be asking. Why are "scientists" wasting valuable resources on this question. Come on people, thermometers can answer this question (if they aren't placed next to NOAA's air conditioners :sailor: ). The only question we should be worried about is....Are WE causing global warming? Or, an even better question...Does adding more CO2 to the atmosphere cause the earth to become much warmer? Let's pretend that the earth is warming, and even causing climate change. That DOES NOT prove that OUR CO2 emissions are the cause. Now for some argument.

1. Weather balloons can find no hot spots that warming green house gases would leave. Conclusion...something else (Not CO2) is causing warming.
2. Ice core samples have shown that for the last half-million years, temperature rises have always preceded (gone before) carbon dioxide rises, by an average of 800 years. Conclusion...something else is causing warming.
3. CO2 can only soak up its favorite wavelength. When there is more CO2 then the wavelength it soaks up, it can't take any more. That means that adding more CO2 will have NO warming effect. Simple physics. So, does an Ethnobotanist have to take physics? Conclusion...something else is causing warming.

Anyways, here is one of my favorite quotes.

"Physics is the only real science. The rest are just stamp collecting."

-- Ernest Rutherford

[Pict]

I'm doing my part. My house has solar hot water. That sounds great but all electricity in Brazil is hydroelectric.

The guy who installed my solar hot water system was a total eco-hippy, really nice guy but you are familiar with the type, tie-died shirt and all. He was explaining how to use it. He said, "Now if you just want to wash your hands or something use the cold water." I asked why. "So you don't waste energy!" I said, "It's solar, the energy is wasted whether I use it or not. I can waste water but not energy." From the look on his face I don't think he had ever considered it and he designs and installs the systems. He was just so ingrained that we shouldn't waste energy that he takes short solar showers. Mac

[Rick]

That guy probably went home that night and took the longest shower of his life. Love it!

[NightShade]

Hey I'm no scientist (surprise).... I've seen data and arguments supporting both sides... Don't know what to believe... Don't much care either...
I try to live my life with as little obvious environmental impact as possible, because i'd like my kids, and my kid's kids to enjoy what I've enjoyed....
That being said, I have seen a remarkable change in pollution and building in my relatively short life span, and not for the better...
Am I an environmentalist?.. I don't know.... Love the wilderness!!.. I sure aint chaining myself to a tree or floating in front of whales!
Many "environmentalist activists" I know are really just D-Bags who never even walk in the woods and just turn me off to the whole movement.

[smhg]

Couldn't have said it better and don't have much to add.

When global warming is used to hype giving global power to people I wouldn't trust with my lunch money its a red flag for me. I fear what they will do with power much more than any climate change. This thing is the biggest power grab in the history of the planet. I am not a tin foil hat conspiracy theorist but the fact that there is a global movement that will result in totalitarianism and a smaller, more entrenched elite is as plain as day.

Their unified message is, "You are not capable of governing yourselves, you must be controlled through whatever level of force and coercion necessary for your own good." Elitists have been saying that from the dawn of time in their own local and national way. Now they are saying it on a global scale and it won't end well. Mac

Well said Mac (& Winnie in your post.)

Your comment "I am not a tin foil hat conspiracy theorist..'' made me chuckle - It is totally fine if you are :) Conspiracy theorists probably know a lot more than most people, and I am sure there are a few on this forum! About a year or so ago, even Fox News admitted that a lot of what conspiracy theorists have been saying for a long time is coming true.

The elite (whether people call them the illuminati, rockefellers, rothschilds, etc.) are moving full-force ahead on their globalization plan and the global warming ''climate-gate'' is just one of the tools used to get the financial market under their one government control. Copenhagen set the framework for the global government, so 2010 will be an interesting year, to say the least.

I am sure we have not heard the last about global warming....even though the climate is actually in a cooling cycle right now.

I saw your other post about solar heated water. We will do the same thing when we build...many people in our neighborhood have solar water heat. I had to laugh at what the guy said to you!

Moderators: Sorry if I went too political...just edit my post if I did. I am still trying to figure out the parameters regarding politics. Some posts have more than others.

[Rick]

Looks fine so far.

[2dumb2kwit]

I'm doing my part. My house has solar hot water. That sounds great but all electricity in Brazil is hydroelectric.

The guy who installed my solar hot water system was a total eco-hippy, really nice guy but you are familiar with the type, tie-died shirt and all. He was explaining how to use it. He said, "Now if you just want to wash your hands or something use the cold water." I asked why. "So you don't waste energy!" I said, "It's solar, the energy is wasted whether I use it or not. I can waste water but not energy." From the look on his face I don't think he had ever considered it and he designs and installs the systems. He was just so ingrained that we shouldn't waste energy that he takes short solar showers. Mac

Now that's a funny story!
A great example of not thinking about the how or why. LOL:innocent:

[Winnie]

I'm doing my part. My house has solar hot water. That sounds great but all electricity in Brazil is hydroelectric.

The guy who installed my solar hot water system was a total eco-hippy, really nice guy but you are familiar with the type, tie-died shirt and all. He was explaining how to use it. He said, "Now if you just want to wash your hands or something use the cold water." I asked why. "So you don't waste energy!" I said, "It's solar, the energy is wasted whether I use it or not. I can waste water but not energy." From the look on his face I don't think he had ever considered it and he designs and installs the systems. He was just so ingrained that we shouldn't waste energy that he takes short solar showers. Mac

Ahh that would be water shortages then:innocent:

[Pict]

I saw your other post about solar heated water. We will do the same thing when we build...many people in our neighborhood have solar water heat. I had to laugh at what the guy said to you!



Solar hot water in Brazil is a no-brainer. It does require installing separate copper hot water lines in the house when you build but it is worth every centavo. I installed the system because it made solid economic and lifestyle sense. I like my long showers and reduced electric bills.

For those who don't live here, Brazilian homes do not have central heat or AC normally. Hot water is usually electric at the point of use, such as the ever popular electric shower head.

If you do install solar make sure that whatever appliances you buy can be hooked up to it. Many washing machines here are set up to heat their own water and that can't be altered due to the way the sensors and programming are set up. The guy selling the machines will tell you whatever so be sure to check it out.

Consult with a solar heat specialist before you build the house. There has to be enough vertical distance between the panels and the hot water tanks to create a convection circulation. The tanks go under the cold water reserve and above the collection panels. The hot water circulates by natural thermal convection. Colder water from the bottom of the hot water tanks sinks to the bottom of the panels, gets heated and rises back to the top of the hot water tanks.

Mac

[Rick]

Electric shower head, huh?

[Camp10]

Electric shower head, huh?

mine is hydraulic!:)

[canid]

quite the coincidence: mine is hydraulic too.

[NightShade]

Mine is chrome plated..

[Ole WV Coot]

I know what a head is, now to the shower.........

[Plastic Brick]

Hi. I don't know if this is a dead horse topic but since certain beliefs in my field can control designing and employment in general I wanted to ask who believes in Global Warming and why.

I'm actually a skeptic of it and of most science that isn't confirmed by the scientific method (meaning a theory that is made law only after repeatedly being tested time and time again). However, I am open to whatever info and opinions you wish to give, and am assuming that this isn't an illegal topic on the forum.

[Rick]

I believe in Global Change. It seems to happen every few hours around here. It was -1 this morning and now it's about 27. So today, it's warming.

[welderguy]

Global warming huh. Nope at this point cant say it holds much merit with me.

[Rick]

Now that's funny I don't care who you are.

[hoosierarcher]

When NASA scientists pointed out that EVERY increase in global temperature listed by "green" scientists were consistent with increased solar activity the "green" scientists ignored or derided the NASA data as specious. Now NASA shows that solar activity is decreasing slightly and it's getting slightly colder. Gee whodathunkit?
Never trust a scientist whose government grants depend on his results. NASA gets it's funding regardless of what they discover or report; not So climate scientists.

[glockcop]

NO!! I do NOT believe in this money racket. Way too much to go into but suffice to say that idiot A.G. stands to make plenty money off this crap. I just can't believe all the dumb a$$es that swallow it hook line and sinker. His "science" is fantasy and his "facts" are twisted. This is the same guy who tells people that we knew CO2 was a "green house gas" nearly 200 years ago. I mean come on. That terminology did not even exist then. We did not even have a periodic table 200 years ago much less know that CO2 was "a green house gas". I guess he wants us to stop breathing to save the planet. He also said that just a "few kilometers" under the earth's crust it is "millions of degrees". The suface of of the sun is only about 6,000 degrees. So by his logic the earth's core is hotter than the sun. He also says that in 10 years the polar ice caps will be gone. There have been recent studies not allowed to be published that show there are vast areas of ice comming back (100's of square miles) in that region. A polar bear drowns and this fool wants me to sell my truck and buy a four cylinder KIA to save the world. The number one green house gas is water vapor. Yes, that's right, water vapor. So all these eco cars that burn hydrogen and give off water vapor as exhaust are technically a higher contributer to "global warming" than my truck. No, I don't believe it! Yall stay safe.

[Rick]

Hey, hey. The guy's a vet. Cut him some slack. Everyone is allowed to make a buck.

[Pict]

I do not believe in man made global warming. Most of the people pushing it the hardest are people who need to fade from power and recognition. They are using it as a means to gain control over everything they possibly can and line their pockets at the same time.

I do believe that we are overcrowding, over-consuming, over polluting, and we should be trying to live a simpler life and not waste so much and make such a mess. In short I love the planet too and want to see it preserved. I just don't want to see that preserved planet ruled by the kinds of people who are pushing the green agenda because in the end they are about none of the things listed in this paragraph. It is about making money at the expense of anyone who is working for a living and buying the votes of those who want everything for free.

I'd better stop or I'm going to get myself all worked up. I HOPE there will be CHANGE and the liberal elite will fall from power never to recover. Mac

[Rick]

Listen. You two keep this up and Al will take his internet away from you. You just watch. He'll do it.

[crashdive123]

Hi. I don't know if this is a dead horse topic but since certain beliefs in my field can control designing and employment in general I wanted to ask who believes in Global Warming and why.

I'm actually a skeptic of it and of most science that isn't confirmed by the scientific method (meaning a theory that is made law only after repeatedly being tested time and time again). However, I am open to whatever info and opinions you wish to give, and am assuming that this isn't an illegal topic on the forum.

I do not. I believe that the movement has been populated by socialists and communists that would like to see the modern democracies around the world brought to their knees so that we could all live in a one world commune, socialist utopia. Other than that, I don't have much of an opinion on the topic.

[Winnie]

To repeat myself, see post #74.

http://www.wilderness-survival.net/forums/showthread.php?t=1365&highlight=climate+change&page=4

[Batch]

I hope the proponents of the hole in the ozone...errr... Global warming dressed accordingly this winter. That'd be a great example of natural selection.

That's why the polar bear died. He was trying to swim away from all those scantly clad hippies who were trying to give him a big old bear hug in the interest of a greener planet. :innocent:

[Trabitha]

No, I don't believe in global warming. It has been proven over and over again that the planet has regular changes. It's also proven that the earth has a natural "wobble" that will eventually change her poles. If they hadn't falsified so many numbers in the past they may have more backers.

[2dumb2kwit]

Yes, I believe in "global warming".
I also believe in "global cooling"......I just don't think we have a lot to do, with either one.

[Sarge47]

This thread has been merged with the former! As I said before, I believe in global warming....the cause is from all of the hot air it's faithful believers spew forth. :sneaky2: :innocent: :cool2:

[welderguy]

the cause is from all of the hot air it's faithful believers spew forth. :sneaky2: :innocent: :cool2:

DING DING DING And we have a winner folks, LOLOL That is so true.

[glockcop]

I believe that A.G. is a genius, in the Tooth Fairy, in Santa, and in the Easter Bunny. A.G. has officially declaired Jack Frost as a myth so I can't believe in Jack Frost anymore. I see things so clearly now that A.G. has brain washed me. O.K., now for reality...... I intended every bit of the previous statement as sarcasm. I feel less intelligent just typing his initials. He is such a J@CK @SS. Just in case I was not clear, I have no use for this lying, thief, spin doctor who prospers at the expense of the gullable. I also have very little use for those easily fooled, non mentally fortified, morons who follow every one of his deceitful words. Sorry if this offends anyone but this is just my opinion on the matter. Surely others will differ and you have my condolences. Yall take care.

[Trabitha]

Excelsior!
http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c179/Trabby/al-gore-superhero.jpg

[welderguy]

I believe that A.G. is a genius, in the Tooth Fairy, in Santa, and in the Easter Bunny. A.G. has officially declaired Jack Frost as a myth so I can't believe in Jack Frost anymore. I see things so clearly now that A.G. has brain washed me. O.K., now for reality...... I intended every bit of the previous statement as sarcasm. I feel less intelligent just typing his initials. He is such a J@CK @SS. Just in case I was not clear, I have no use for this lying, thief, spin doctor who prospers at the expense of the gullable. I also have very little use for those easily fooled, non mentally fortified, morons who follow every one of his deceitful words. Sorry if this offends anyone but this is just my opinion on the matter. Surely other will differ and you have my condolences. Yall take care.

GC I think you need to open up more and tell us how you really feel . :innocent:lol

[Plastic Brick]

Well, it seems my original thread has been hijacked. However, I admit the original thread title sucked.

I believe in science that follows the scientific method: meaning that theories are only taught as laws after they have been proven true time and time again. Therefore I don't really believe in global warming, macro-evolution, ect. Its not that they aren't proper hypothesis' or theories, but they are not facts (laws), IMO because they cannot be verified by just anyone time and time again. However, that doesn't mean that global warming is a lie- it just means that to me science is only law (and fact) once the documentation has been done- not just for disconnected pieces of the puzzle but the entire puzzle looked at and documented with facts. Like if they had confirmed documented proof that an amoeba turned into a frog, and then that same frog turned into a fish, and then that same fish turned into a horse, ect, all the way up to the gorilla turning into a person. So far they just have pieces of that puzzle that are speculations of scientists we never meet (chances are). Therefore both are theories; not laws.

Most people can test the laws of physics and chemistry themselves with the right training (ie a degree in chemistry and a big enough microscope).

The reason I asked about global warming though is that whether its true or not seems to depend on the future, which we obviously can't predict and evaluate scientifically. Maybe in the future the ice caps will melt all the way, and maybe that melting is due to global warming and not something else. So its not an issue of whether or not its a lie. Its an issue of it being taught as fact when its still just a theory. Sometimes in design classes we are asked how we will design to address global warming, as if its already been decided that its true.

[yellowcab]

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[yellowcab]

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