PDA

View Full Version : Tried using pine pitch for the first time, had a catastrophy happen.



justin_baker
06-02-2010, 12:21 AM
So a couple of days ago i filled up my canteen cup with some pine resin, i found a damaged tree with some real massive globs on it so i had a very substantial amount. I put it on my fire to melt it down (i was making primitive fish hooks) and after a minute or so, the entire thing caught flame! The resin caught fire some how and was shooting huge flames out of the cup.
I dont really know why it did this. This was my first time trying to melt pitch.
I put it over a very hot fire, there were some read hot coals and very active flames. If you heat it up to hot too fast will it flame up?
Also, i had some hacked off pine branches on the fire. They had little fingerlings that suspended above the fire a little bit, is it possible that one of them caught fire and fell into the cup and set the whole thing ablaze?
Im really confused as to why is caught on fire.

Sourdough
06-02-2010, 12:29 AM
I am NOT supprised.........

justin_baker
06-02-2010, 12:35 AM
Well, what do you think i did wrong? Can heating it up too much and too fast cause it to flame? If not, then a burning twig must have fallen in.

Sarge47
06-02-2010, 01:08 AM
Pine pitch is highly flammable and makes a great fuel for any type of "tin-can-stove." But you know that already...now. :cool2:

justin_baker
06-02-2010, 01:34 AM
Pine pitch is highly flammable and makes a great fuel for any type of "tin-can-stove." But you know that already...now. :cool2:

Yeah, i have actually used it in the same way that you use esbit cubes to heat up some food or drink.

your_comforting_company
06-02-2010, 01:45 AM
pitch has a particular volatility to it. That is why it is valued as tinder, for firestarter. Pitch is what makes fatwood fat. It ignites at a low temperature and burns hot. Any number of things could have gone wrong, but I'm betting that you raised the temperature past the ignition point.
That stuff is very sticky, and very hot, and can continue burning while stuck to your skin. Be careful next time. You could have been hurt pretty bad. Glad you didn't and didn't burn the house down in the process.

justin_baker
06-02-2010, 04:38 AM
p
That stuff is very sticky, and very hot, and can continue burning while stuck to your skin. Be careful next time.

Yes, that happened to me a couple of weeks ago when experimenting with a torch of sorts. It was not pretty...i got a rather big burn streak on my leg, i mean a really bad burn. I have a really deep scab over it right now.
But when i was melting the pitch it was in a metal container and out in the woods, no danger of burning down my house and i was far away when it started flaming. I had to pour dirt over it to get it to stop burning.

crashdive123
06-02-2010, 06:32 AM
In other news - California is experiencing one of the worst wild fires in its history.

Seriously though - YCC was right on in his advice to you. Have you been able to get the resin remnants out of your canteen cup? If not, put it in the fridge for a bit and then use a stick to "chisel" it out.

BENESSE
06-02-2010, 06:40 AM
I am intrigued.
How do you make primitive fish hooks out of (with) pine resin?

crashdive123
06-02-2010, 06:46 AM
The fish hook would be made of whatever material you are using (bone, wood, thorns, etc.) The resin comes into play when you are using a wrap of fine cordage to tie things together. Think of a hot glue gun and the melted glue coating the string to keep it securely in place.

your_comforting_company
06-02-2010, 07:02 AM
B. I use hide glue as it binds better with bone and wood, then cover it with pitch glue as a water sealer, since hide glue is water soluble and would dissolve while fishing.

BENESSE
06-02-2010, 07:33 AM
Again, forgive a newbie question...
Why would you need to seal the knot if you make it real tight? Wouldn't the water make it swell up and keep it even tighter?

Rick
06-02-2010, 07:43 AM
The terpenes in the pine pitch are highly flamable. That's what gives the pine pitch the ability to burn. You cooked off the terpenes, which then ignited much like gasoline would. Turn down the temp on your fire or don't let it sit so long.

crashdive123
06-02-2010, 08:07 AM
Again, forgive a newbie question...
Why would you need to seal the knot if you make it real tight? Wouldn't the water make it swell up and keep it even tighter?

Cordages will loosen over time - especially those that get wet. If a fish hook (knife, spear, or anything else) is being held together with cordage, the resin makes it more permanent. Don't think about attaching the fishing line to the hook, but rater a two piece hook that you are trying to keep togeter as one piece. Here's a youtube vid that Gene did that shows some hooks and things that he sealed with pine resin. http://www.youtube.com/trapperjacksurvival#p/u/48/iHkep9d0x3s

BENESSE
06-02-2010, 08:11 AM
Thanks Crash, I understand now. Nothing like a show-and-tell.

trax
06-02-2010, 11:14 AM
I'm glad justin shared this anecdote with the group and I kind of think that it's importance may have been underestimated. I'm not trying to pick on you justin, but from what you said, it kind of seems like you left the heating pine pitch unattended. Well, no harm-no foul, next time you'll know.

But, we've had threads and conversation on the various uses of tars and resins from trees and people want to try the bush remedies. So, heat up any tree sap or whatever slowly, it's all flammable (it's the reason wood makes that lovely popping noise in the fire) and keep your eye on it. You'll be fine. I've used melted spruce and pine gum for things as diverse as putting a patch on a canoe to glueing a birchbark bandage closed over an injury. Anyone else here old enough to remember that old sergeant on Hill Street Blues? "And hey....let's be careful out there"

justin_baker
06-02-2010, 02:42 PM
B. I use hide glue as it binds better with bone and wood, then cover it with pitch glue as a water sealer, since hide glue is water soluble and would dissolve while fishing.
Im using a wood base and bone barb so i will try out hide glue when i get a chance.

justin_baker
06-02-2010, 02:46 PM
Again, forgive a newbie question...
Why would you need to seal the knot if you make it real tight? Wouldn't the water make it swell up and keep it even tighter?

If you are making a small fish hook, its kinda hard to wrap it and get it perfectly tight, it will still wiggle around. Resin just gives it that extra layer of protection. Whenever ancient people mounted spear heads, knife handles, arrowheads, they always used a combination of cordage and some kind of glue.

BENESSE
06-02-2010, 02:53 PM
Maybe carrying some Gorilla Glue (w/small applicator) in the pack might not be a bad idea. 'Course it's always good to know how you can make your own.

Swamprat1
06-02-2010, 03:45 PM
Took some kids camping several years ago and they had no idea what lighter knot pine, also called fatwood, was. While cooking breakfast, I had some biscuits on the fire, I told one of them to put a little more wood on the food. To late, I realized that he had put about a two foot long, 3 inch round stick of lighter knot on the fire. I turned around to see about four foot of flames engulfing the skillet. Lets just say that the biscuits didn't turn out so well. lol

crashdive123
06-02-2010, 04:11 PM
Maybe carrying some Gorilla Glue (w/small applicator) in the pack might not be a bad idea. 'Course it's always good to know how you can make your own.

Another trick is to keep a few hot glue gun sticks in you bag/kit. Just melt and apply much the same way you would with pine resin. There is a certain satisfaction doing it completely with materials that you find, but it's nice to have a back-up.

crashdive123
06-02-2010, 04:12 PM
Took some kids camping several years ago and they had no idea what lighter knot pine, also called fatwood, was. While cooking breakfast, I had some biscuits on the fire, I told one of them to put a little more wood on the food. To late, I realized that he had put about a two foot long, 3 inch round stick of lighter knot on the fire. I turned around to see about four foot of flames engulfing the skillet. Lets just say that the biscuits didn't turn out so well. lol

I guess the kids learned something new that day.:innocent:

justin_baker
06-02-2010, 05:17 PM
Maybe carrying some Gorilla Glue (w/small applicator) in the pack might not be a bad idea. 'Course it's always good to know how you can make your own.

Yeah, but that would be cheating :P Instead im going to carry around resin sticks in my pack for when i need them. Same idea but i will stay primitive.

rwc1969
06-03-2010, 11:06 AM
The terpenes in the pine pitch are highly flamable. That's what gives the pine pitch the ability to burn. You cooked off the terpenes, which then ignited much like gasoline would. Turn down the temp on your fire or don't let it sit so long.

What he said!

Anytime I let the flames lick around the side of my container the pitch ignites. Even if it's not too hot too burn if the flames reach the vapors it catches the whole thing on fire.

If it does flame up you can put something flat over the container and suffocate the flames, then try again. You don't have to bury it in sand, just cut off the oxygen. Take it off the flame first though or it will just re-ignite when you pull the cover off.

I've placed a small container of pitch inside a container of little water and this prevents burning/ flame up and allows the pitch to melt nice and pretty like.

I've always wondered bout the torches using pine pitch and the resin that drips off of them while burning. Now I know. Don't let it drip on you.

Rick
06-03-2010, 03:10 PM
Sort of a double boiler method huh? That should work just fine. As for the dripping pine resin....Ouch!!!!

crashdive123
06-03-2010, 04:52 PM
The last time I melted some I used the depression in a small rock and a candle below to heat up the rock.

BENESSE
06-03-2010, 05:01 PM
The last time I melted some I used the depression in a small rock and a candle below to heat up the rock.

That makes infinite more sense to me than using a pot. Who wants to spend time, energy and resources trying to get it clean in the wilderness.

maker_of_fire
06-14-2010, 08:48 PM
Do you have experience with gorge for a fishhook I made one from bone about 3 4ths inch long cordage from narrow leaf milkweed its about 12 ft.can i dunk the whole thing in resin or is there a better way your fish hooks look great might try one

hunter63
06-14-2010, 09:05 PM
Note to self........don't play with pitch, hair just grew back on arm from alcohol stove.........

maker_of_fire
06-15-2010, 09:02 PM
Dose anyone use a gorge for fishing I,ve made one its 3 4ths inch long from deer leg bone cordage about 12ft from narrow leaf milk weed have not tride it yet Should I coat it with pine resin will it allways be sticky

justin_baker
06-15-2010, 09:06 PM
Dose anyone use a gorge for fishing I,ve made one its 3 4ths inch long from deer leg bone cordage about 12ft from narrow leaf milk weed have not tride it yet Should I coat it with pine resin will it allways be sticky

You should use a combination of resin and rapping it with cordage. It wont always be sticky. You heat it up and it gets sticky but once it dries out it is smooth as glass.

maker_of_fire
06-15-2010, 09:10 PM
THanks justin the gorge has tinny hole to atach it to cordage hope to use it soon

your_comforting_company
06-15-2010, 10:08 PM
In my experience the gorge doesn't really need gluing. Not sure exactly how yours is made, but I just use the hole in the legbone and run string through. Often I'll make the string IN the hole. I only use glues on compound hooks that employ thorns for barbs which need to be attached to the bone. I gave a hook I made to a friend and he brought me back a nice catfish to prove it worked. Didn't have a camera handy at the time, but it held a few pounds. Can you get PTW to snap a picture of it? I'm not sure why a gorge would need glue.

maker_of_fire
06-15-2010, 10:20 PM
Do I need to coat the cordage My gorge has a hole in the middle to tie on Water proffing my fishing line is my question

hunter63
06-16-2010, 12:16 AM
In my experience the gorge doesn't really need gluing. Not sure exactly how yours is made, but I just use the hole in the legbone and run string through. Often I'll make the string IN the hole. I only use glues on compound hooks that employ thorns for barbs which need to be attached to the bone. I gave a hook I made to a friend and he brought me back a nice catfish to prove it worked. Didn't have a camera handy at the time, but it held a few pounds. Can you get PTW to snap a picture of it? I'm not sure why a gorge would need glue.

I guess I was wondering the same thing??

One reference, doesn't seem to need glue.


http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.southwestguidebooks.com/images/primitive_images/gorges.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.southwestguidebooks.com/primitive_skills/primitive_skills_page8.htm&h=379&w=608&sz=73&tbnid=By_qjA1T-PwZDM:&tbnh=85&tbnw=136&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dgorge%2Bfishing&hl=en&usg=__s6tp4zw2F3WxyCOnJ-jVktnDM-4=&sa=X&ei=PU8YTK7TA4K8lQeI3NH9Cw&ved=0CCUQ9QEwAw

Survival Guy 10
06-30-2010, 02:51 PM
So a couple of days ago i filled up my canteen cup with some pine resin, i found a damaged tree with some real massive globs on it so i had a very substantial amount. I put it on my fire to melt it down (i was making primitive fish hooks) and after a minute or so, the entire thing caught flame! The resin caught fire some how and was shooting huge flames out of the cup.
I dont really know why it did this. This was my first time trying to melt pitch.
I put it over a very hot fire, there were some read hot coals and very active flames. If you heat it up to hot too fast will it flame up?
Also, i had some hacked off pine branches on the fire. They had little fingerlings that suspended above the fire a little bit, is it possible that one of them caught fire and fell into the cup and set the whole thing ablaze?
Im really confused as to why is caught on fire.

same thing happened to me kinda scary

justin_baker
06-30-2010, 07:24 PM
In my experience the gorge doesn't really need gluing. Not sure exactly how yours is made, but I just use the hole in the legbone and run string through. Often I'll make the string IN the hole. I only use glues on compound hooks that employ thorns for barbs which need to be attached to the bone. I gave a hook I made to a friend and he brought me back a nice catfish to prove it worked. Didn't have a camera handy at the time, but it held a few pounds. Can you get PTW to snap a picture of it? I'm not sure why a gorge would need glue.

We might be talking about two different types of hooks. This is the kind that i made
http://www.selljersey.co.uk/im/image7_3_tmb.jpg
If you wrap it real good, you dont really need any resin. But my hooks were very very small, so it was too hard to get a super tight and perfect wrapping job.
Ray Mears does a good video on this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QQc2kC5CpOo

crashdive123
06-30-2010, 10:27 PM
JB - those are compound hooks. The picture below is a gorge hook.

http://www.southwestguidebooks.com/images/primitive_images/gorges.jpg

your_comforting_company
07-01-2010, 08:41 AM
Excellent composite hook making JB! tried to give you some rep, but can't. Just for kicks, have you tried using sinew to make the wraps? it's thinner and very strong, and it also is flat on two sides. Might make for lighter weight and less bulk on the fishy end without sacrificing strength. I might whittle one of these out next time I have some free time.
The gorge is by far the easiest to make, though. any rough stone and piece of bone can be used, and normally, I use the gorge as my fold point so the string is made around the gorge. It gives it a bit more pivot-power, while not requiring a knot on the gorge end of the string (easier to put bait on).

justin_baker
07-01-2010, 02:11 PM
Excellent composite hook making JB! tried to give you some rep, but can't. Just for kicks, have you tried using sinew to make the wraps? it's thinner and very strong, and it also is flat on two sides. Might make for lighter weight and less bulk on the fishy end without sacrificing strength. I might whittle one of these out next time I have some free time.
The gorge is by far the easiest to make, though. any rough stone and piece of bone can be used, and normally, I use the gorge as my fold point so the string is made around the gorge. It gives it a bit more pivot-power, while not requiring a knot on the gorge end of the string (easier to put bait on).

Well those pictures aren't mine, if that's what you are thinking, but i have made ones nearly identical. I had about 4 or 5 of them but my mom accidentally threw them out so i don't have any to take pictures and show.

Yes, the gorges are really easy to make! You can even make them out of wood. You could make up a dozen wood ones in very little time and throw them out. But if i using natural cordage for the fishing line, i would want to make a compound hook(more effective) to make the best use of precious cordage.

I found that the best way to make compound hooks is to have a bone barb and a wooden base. Even better though is too find some type of thorn to use as a barb, if such a plant or tree exists near you (there arent any here)

The first time i made hooks, i just peeled off little fiber strands from a thistle plant and lashed on. They were very tiny hooks, it was really hard to get a proper tight rap on it so i compensated with resin. (or glue a couple of times when i didnt have resin on me) I dont have any sinew so i have never tried it. Heres a tip though...i have never heard anybody do this but you can use your hair as cordage.(especially you with your hippy hair :P) Just comb out a loose, dead piece with your fingers and lash on. Its not super strong but its tiny and strong enough for tiny hooks (The kind for 4 inch bass and little bluegills).
I have yet to actually use a primitive hook though. I was going to take a few out for a spin but they got thrown out. Ive been really busy with work but i will get around to it soon.

Once you get down to making them, make sure to watch the ray mears video and this kids video. The wrapping is a little bit hard but these guys explain it well. They make no actually knots on the hook, they just wrap the roots so tight that tension will hold it in place when it gets tucked under. If you wrap a compound hook perfectly, you dont even need any resin. But its only possible to get such a wrap if your hook is a little bigger in my experience.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QQc2kC5CpOo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AEBo0lbN7zg

your_comforting_company
07-02-2010, 10:25 AM
Thanks for the tips. I'll get around to making some more bone hooks soon and this time I'll keep them to try instead of giving them away to friends lol. I want to try some of my hair in the making of the hooks, and some cordage, and if I ever do learn to.. in tying deer-tail flies. Mayflies are in season and I'd like to try to simulate one. The bream love 'em!