Dampness- I really hate that!

[hunter63]

As it's been sorta rainy and cold lately, and as they say, the dampness "goes right through ya", brought to mind ways of combating it.

Spent a lot of time camping in all kinds of ways, including a hunting camp in a damp basement, and it seems that keeping stuff dry, even when it's not raining is important to keep your self warm.
Morning fog, condensation, ground moisture, sweating all seem to try to defeat any attempt at staying dry,for any length of time.

I have used ground cloths, canvas, foam pads, hair on hides, plastic visqueen/contractor bags, rip stop nylon ponchos, pine boughs, bare ground, bare cot, PU truck bed, and many different types of mattresses.

It seems that if you traveling, spending the nite, most ground cloths work fine for one nite, It's when you spend any amount of time, in a camp/location...... stuff just gets damp.

Burning a fire/stove/lantern... inside a shelter helps to suck out some of it, but it still take lifting up and drying out most any thing to keep it from getting damp.

So any of y'all have some ideas, on keeping you and gear dry?

[Rick]

I haven't figured it out either. I try to keep one place protected so I can hang clothes to dry but it's a bit hard for stuff to dry when it's raining. If anything I think they soak up moisture out of the air. I've tried channeling water around my tent, making certain it's on the high ground so water drains away, I've even put up a tarp over my tent all for nada. As long as the humidity is at 100% I think you just get to stay yucky. And I hate sleeping yucky.

[Ken]

I minimize this problem simply by packing susceptable items in a plastic bag. I haven't solved the problem, but it's better.

I've taken the same precautions as Rick regarding my tent, and I've found that a plastic sheet or shower curtain on the tent floor, as well as a tent footprint, really, really help. So does keeping the fly open a bit as well as spreading a layer of pine needles around the outside base (a border about 10" wide) of the tent if they're available and time permits. Just clean up your camp before you leave. Leave no trace.

As far as personal clothing goes, I highly recommend this line for staying "dry." http://www.rei.com/product/732619

[oly]

I just wont to follow this post. My area is about 15%RH and I have been in high humidity areas and wondered if there was better ways to stay dry.

[Batch]

Down here during archery season we have a relative humidity that gets in the 90's every day and the temperature can be in the high 90's as well. Not to mention the fact that we are walking in water and we have afternoon thunder storms pretty much daily. Under Armour is getting soaked through in those conditions.

A lot of people hunt with Under Armour for scent management and then Bug Tamers. Bug Tamers are the best for staying cool (not the leafy ones).

I'd really love to find something that worked down here. But, till then we just have to deal with it.

[hunter63]

I know we have people on here that are from all over Alaska to Brazil, UK to Down under, so what are your favorite tips?

Winter camping, plastic sheet, pine bows or pine straw (dry) over, then pad.

Actually had broken bales of straw, over a plastic sheet, in a primitive lodge, wall tent, at a Frozen butt rendezvous, froze to the ground.

Warm weather, plastic sheet, pad, bag or blanket.

What do y'all do in Alaska?

[Alaskan Survivalist]

What do y'all do in Alaska?


Great topic! I would go out prospecting with guys that begged to go and 2 weeks later when they and all their gear was soaked to the core they would turn back. This is the first of many difficulties to be overcome. The most obvious way to stay dry if staying for extended period of time in one location is to build a warm dry structure. A 6 pole tipi covered with tarps is the most expedient. I cut the poles and had this one up in about 40 minutes to use as winter storage.

http://i540.photobucket.com/albums/gg346/akmofo/IMG_0858.jpg

That’s the homesteader in me that just starts building a nice place to stay but when on the move it is different story. The first thing I do is pitch a tarp high enough I can stand under, hang clothes to dry and build a fire to edge of tarp. There are lots of smaller things that add up to make things better which is where I see this thread going. I’ll just give a few examples to get it started.

Some people will pull their sleeping bag over their head and breath into their sleeping bag. This will build moisture in bag and lessen insulation ability.

Feet sweat and even if you don’t walk in water they will get wet, especially rubber boots. They can be hard to dry at cooler outdoor temperatures and no air circulation in boots. I use wool felt sole liners that absorb the moisture and remove them at night to dry for the next day. This helps even if boots become completely drenched. Having dry soles make it better.

The ground is moist here so things should be kept off ground. I have a hole drilled in everything and tie a rope with loops in to hang things. Lack of shelf space is a problem camping and laying things around can loose them so this helps in that regard as well.

Sometimes camping with others we have hung large cargo parachute over the whole campsite. You can pitch half a dozen tents under one.

The longer you spend in an environment the more you get used to it and I find whiskey helps during the adjustment period.

For some reason most people quit shaving and bathing in woods. This only adds to funk of being damp. A bar of soap, razor, mirror and a small towel will make you feel more comfortable if used on a regular basis.

I could go on and on but I am hoping others will step up and do their share of the typing and maybe teach me a new trick or two. It’s a combination of a bunch of little things that keep you comfortable and dry.

[crashdive123]

Great post AS. When I used to go out for extended trips, and especially in colder weather, I would put warm (not red hot) rocks in my boots at night in addition to keeping them near the fire. If I had dry boots in the morning, the rest of the day usually went pretty good.

[hunter63]

Now were are getting some where, good tips.
I don't sleep in the cloths I wear during the day, if real cold I keep them in the bag with me, but don't wear them.

I like the idea of the tarp, kinda a camp kitchen.
We use one if we are camped any length of time, and generally have a fire going close by with something as a reflector.
Keep steam from cooking out of the sleeping shelter, provides a gathering place, and a spot for drying gear.

I also like the wool liners in the boots, and sometimes carry a spare pair, or at least a couple of small plastic bags.
Wet boots and liners? Take off socks, put on dry socks, plastic bags, then put back on. Will keep your feet kinda dry and warm till you can either dry liners, or switch them.
Have used a wool mitt for a sock, after finding a sorta froze over fox hole in the swamp.

Whisky make good snow snake remedy, ever been bothered by them up the in the north country?


Kitchen fly at rendezvous one variation:

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y139/hunter63/sqawlodge.jpg

[Alaskan Survivalist]

sometimes carry a spare pair, or at least a couple of small plastic bags.
Wet boots and liners? Take off socks, put on dry socks, plastic bags, then put back on. Will keep your feet kinda dry and warm till you can either dry liners, or switch them.


That's one I did not know! That could be a life saver in Alaska!

[Sourdough]

Guiding season on the Alaska Peninsula starts Aug. 5'th till Oct. 27'th. It is a cold wet windy hell. Winds are 30 mph to 115mph and never less than 20 mph. Torrential rain 90% of the time. You are camped 85 days straight in an 8' X 8' tent called a "Bomb Shelter" made by Eureka Tent Co. about $1,295.00 each. Everything is wet all of the time, never ever dry.

Now the hunter's plane arrives for his $20,000.00 ten day hunt. Starts by telling me what size animal is the minimum he will accept. By the end of the second day he will be asking for a much smaller animal, end of the third day of being cold, wet, and miserable he states, "I shoot any size animal we can find if I can go home, by the end of the forth day he will forfeit all the cost just to get out of there alive, at the end of the fifth day he wants to pay an additional $10,000.00 if the plane will just come and extract him from purgatory. End of the sixth day he is trying to slit his wrist, and he has four more days.

You think I am exaggerating, sorry. You ask what do we do in Alaska......it is easy.......We get wet, we stay wet, and try to stay alive.

[Ken]

So I guess that most of the business is repeat customers or by referral, huh? :innocent:

[Sourdough]

So I guess that most of the business is repeat customers or by referral, huh? :innocent:


It is truly astounding what Doctors and Businessmen will endure to but a dead Grizzly/Brown Bear on the wall. Note: I suggest spring hunts.

[Ken]

http://thumb11.shutterstock.com.edgesuite.net/display_pic_with_logo/83940/83940,1251486706,10/stock-vector-trophy-in-human-head-36083725.jpg

[Ken]

It is truly astounding what Doctors and Businessmen will endure to but a dead Grizzly/Brown Bear on the wall.

And vice a versa..........

http://www.notcot.com/images/2009/05/iwgbear.jpg

[Alaskan Survivalist]

Seen plenty of cold wet weather myself, this just gives me a deeper appreciation for warm, dry comfort. Something as simple as having an 8"x10" inch piece of foam so you always have a warm, dry, soft place to sit makes all the difference.

[Rick]

I have Gortex lined boots. They really are the berries. I've rafted several of the glacial rivers in AK so you know how cold they are. Sometimes my boots would be full of water but my feet were never cold. Pretty amazing stuff in my book. That's the worst I've been in. Around here, nothing is that bad. An extra pair of dry socks is a must have and letting your feet breath by getting the boots and socks off as often as you can really helps. If possible, I like to get them off at noon while I eat. I don't walk barefoot on snow, however.

I like my poly long johns, too. They dry pretty quick if you can get them out of the rain. I like fleece, too.

Having any kind of clothing that is quick drying is a good thing. Having quick drying clothes that keep you warm, even better.

[LostOutrider]

I know the original post was mostly about keeping gear and shelter dry, but when I'm out in the green, most of the gear I need to stay dry is clothing. I also rarely ever make a fire, even when there is an established fire ring, so I can't rely on that to keep me dry.

Staying dry:

* Avoid cotton. Cotton kills. In heat I wear just a nylon shell, in cold I combine that with something like underarmor and fleece.

* Sleeping bag made of 100% synthetic fill. It'll wick the water away from your body and clothing.

* I don't sleep on the ground. I hang in the air in a 4-season jungle hammock with an XL rain fly. Rock to sleep like a baby without every picking up moisture from the ground. Snow or rain, I've stayed warm and dry.

* Fresh pair of socks for each day I -plan- to be out. Hang the damp pair on a drying line under the rain fly. In cold weather, I'll wear two pair of wool socks and alternate which one is the inner layer each day I'm on the trail.

* Don't walk point after a hard rain. Let the guy in front of you be the one to knock all the water off the leaves.

[Rick]

Another item is the tent itself. Ventilation is a must. Condensation build up on the inside is just inevitable if the tent doesn't ventilate well. My tents are single wall construction so I can't speak to the double walled ones.

[canid]

ok, i've got to ask: what where you hunting in a basement? don't you use those sticky traps?

[hunter63]

ok, i've got to ask: what where you hunting in a basement? don't you use those sticky traps?

Caught that, huh?
Well as it turned out, the house was in a middle of a large track of privet and state land.
Basement had kitchen stove, fridge, table chairs, crapper, and shower.
And two sump pumps that ran all the time, so was damp.
Basement had Bil-co doors directly to the out side, so we "camped" down there on cots, then just walked out to hunt.
Puts the true meaning of "Base camp", being in the Basement".

For those that live "down south" I would imagine that humidity is a bigger problem than cold, but still a major concern.
In Louisiana, even the stuff in the truck was damp in the morning, for humidity and fog.
Bought a couple of totes to keep coats and bibs in over nite, and that helped.

[Alaskan Survivalist]

I'm a bit surprized seeing peoples avatars that hats have not been mentioned. I have known people with leather brimed hats that lived under the shelter of there hats and were damn proud of them. I keep a booney hat that is light and folds up so fits in pack easily. A good hat keeps your head face and neck dry. It all kinds of adds up to keep you dry.

[RCKCRWLER]

One thing I always do is sleep with my next day undergarments, thermals, socks, etc., in the bottom of my sleeping bag. Keeps the feet a little warmer and the clothes are nice and warm in the morning. I have never slept in anything but skibbies, and if it's real cold a t-shirt. More than this will only make you sweat at night. Your sleeping bag, if you buy the right one, should do it's job of keeping you warm. If it's below zero I would throw on a wool hat just to keep my head warm.

During breakfast I'd always open up my sleeping bag in the tent and let it "air" out. Before heading out I would pack it back in the stuff sack. This kept the moisture from accumulating on the bag throughout the day.

Used to always do the sock, bread bag, cotton sock trick too. Always worked great. Then I could finally afford a nice pair of insulated, rubber hunting boots and no longer needed the bread bags for waterproofing.

[hybrid]

In the subtropics some people take to adding a ti tree, eucalyptus, thyme or other mould-killing oil stage to their washing schedule for outdoor gear. Doesn't keep the steam out, but it does help stop it rotting to nothing around your ears.

Living in the tropics years ago, it was just accepted that breeze meant dry and slack air meant sweat stained everything... in a constantly damp area , with a chill, the problem is the availability of fresh dry air and tendency of the moisture you just drove out of your shirt/food/dinner to settle out as droplets not too far away at all.

You'd need a lot of heat to drive that kind of damp out, and keeping it out would mean careful layering of clothing and storage when not in use. Here, it is accepted to keep natural fibres next to the skin, with a fairly breathable synthetic or treated natural outer layer, because it rains but then it stops and is even more humid than when it was raining... not very pleasant. Sealing yourself or your shelter right up will just make you slick with your own moisture.

I'd say keep yourself and your gear and shelter off the ground where possible, accept that even a basic level of dryness is going to mean a truckload of fuel for heat and look into double-layer shelter... insulating and moisture trapping spaces rather than single-layer construction or design.

Never spent a night in a tent without waking up damp, unless I left the doors open. Strangely, most animals look pretty toasty warm and dry in the morning... maybe a reason why many cultures deal with humidity by getting around wearing nothing but a smile and a few feathers.

[hunter63]

I'm a bit surprized seeing peoples avatars that hats have not been mentioned. I have known people with leather brimed hats that lived under the shelter of there hats and were damn proud of them. I keep a booney hat that is light and folds up so fits in pack easily. A good hat keeps your head face and neck dry. It all kinds of adds up to keep you dry.

Good point!
I'm a big hat and cap guy, sorta balding now I guess. (did enjoy my locks in the past lives).
I do spend as much time, money and effort in the correct head gear as I do on my other gear.
Feet cold, put a hat on.
Stocking cap for cold weather sleeping, and wide brim for hot sunny weather, Gortex Jones brimmed hat for wet weather.

[COWBOYSURVIVAL]

I'm a bit surprized seeing peoples avatars that hats have not been mentioned. I have known people with leather brimed hats that lived under the shelter of there hats and were damn proud of them. I keep a booney hat that is light and folds up so fits in pack easily. A good hat keeps your head face and neck dry. It all kinds of adds up to keep you dry.

You got it AS...I've posted this before and most just don't like the style of hat I wear. I wear what is called a cowboy umbrella...simple contoured bag that fits over a cowboy hat like a shower cap! Excellent rain protection. Another thing I do is pack my gear in the plastic totes to keep it dry.

[Excalibur]

the best thing I have learned about humid areas is taking the time to air out your gear. If u have a tarp over your camp build a small fire and dry sleeping bags before you roll them up. keep them in a water proof bag till night time. when you return from your days fun/work, take the time to dry the gear you used. never EVER wear the days clothing when you crawl into the sleeping bag. Plus dont spill your coffey into the sleeping bag when your getting up in the morning.

[SSG HAWK]

I did about 10 search combinations trying to find this topic without success. Rick, I apologyze if my search skills suck and this needs to be moved.

I have ordered a Thermalite Bivy 2 that I will not use as a Bivy but only to increase my mummy bag temperature rating inside my tent. I have a USGI Woodland Bivy but find it too heavy for my inside the tent use. I have read about (and experienced) the condensation problems with this or other space blanket "bivys" years ago. Has anyone come up with a solution to this problem? This product has a vent "door" at the foot, velcrow openings on one side that together are claimed to prevent excess condensation. These probably represent the maximum openings one would want for a real bivy use situation.

I was thinking of getting one of those sewing tools for tracing patterns that look like a minature cowboy spur with sharp but small points and then putting a few hundred holes on the top around the chest area that would be about 1/16th or 1/32nd of an inch each. Or alternatively, in addition to the one open side with velcrow closures (with gaps), I could modify the other side the same way. I also bought a $7 "Emergency (Mylar) Sleeping Bag" to try out the surgery on rather than experimenting on the Bivy.

Hoping someone has solved this issue.

[Rick]

Don't worry about it. Some days you get the Search. Some days it gets you.

Ventilation is the key to humidity. A double walled tent or bivy helps but being able to pull air in the bottom and out the top keeps the humidity down. That obviously makes for a colder night when the temps drop but I'd rather deal with the cold than with the cold and wet. I've never had a problem with my two man tent. My wife and I use it and Lord knows I vent when shes in there. Oh, wait...the tent. I vent the tent. I have a bivy that I haven't used yet. It will probably make the trip to the Jamboree with me this year for it's first trial.

[Sourdough]

I did about 10 search combinations trying to find this topic without success. Rick, I apologyze if my search skills suck and this needs to be moved.

I have ordered a Thermalite Bivy 2 that I will not use as a Bivy but only to increase my mummy bag temperature rating inside my tent. I have a USGI Woodland Bivy but find it too heavy for my inside the tent use. I have read about (and experienced) the condensation problems with this or other space blanket "bivys" years ago. Has anyone come up with a solution to this problem? This product has a vent "door" at the foot, velcrow openings on one side that together are claimed to prevent excess condensation. These probably represent the maximum openings one would want for a real bivy use situation.

I was thinking of getting one of those sewing tools for tracing patterns that look like a minature cowboy spur with sharp but small points and then putting a few hundred holes on the top around the chest area that would be about 1/16th or 1/32nd of an inch each. Or alternatively, in addition to the one open side with velcrow closures (with gaps), I could modify the other side the same way. I also bought a $7 "Emergency (Mylar) Sleeping Bag" to try out the surgery on rather than experimenting on the Bivy.

Hoping someone has solved this issue.

Forum member sjj has a wealth of knowledge on this subject, send him a PM. He is working with the company to improve the bivvy bag. He had a lot of good information on this thread, but he deletes nearly ALL of his posts. He is my friend, but he ain't right in the head. http://www.wilderness-survival.net/forums/showthread.php?16596-quot-Bivvy-quot-Bag-by-heatsheets.&highlight=Bivvy

[Rick]

He is my friend, but he ain't right in the head.

(Big sigh) Man, a lot of us fit in that category.

[BENESSE]

Not right in the head is a prerequisite for being SD's friend.

[Rick]

Or just being on here. Oooh, butterflies.

[SSG HAWK]

SJJ is not accepting PMs.
But Rick came up with the answer that I will try on my "sack"rificial $7 mylar bag:
intake vents ( say knife blade wide by 2-3" long then skip an inch, etc.) low along the sides of the mylar Bivy from knees to upper chest,
exit holes from knees to upper chest (same dimensions but maybe two rows)in the top center of the bag,
2" wide clear packing tape for strength where I cut and elswhere as required &
foam sleeping pad goes in the Mylar bivy so bag does not rest on the Mylar.

By the way, the goal here is to turn a 20-30 degree bag with a Thermolite Reactor extreme liner and this mylar Bivy bag into a below zero bag saving some pounds for those unexpected Texas cold snaps. It may not work but sounds like a fun project. Thanks for the idea Rick.

[Rick]

No problem. Let us know how it works.

[SSG HAWK]

Working on prototype 4 or 5 with great results. I would appreciate any comments and suggestions.
Proto 1 $1 mylar blanket unfolded lenghtwise but not widthwise. Used an electric 3 hole office paper punch. Got carried away since it was so easy and forgot that each time I pushed the electric punch button I was puting in maybe 3 X 15-20 holes because the blanket was still folded only 2" wide. Ended up with 300-400 holes. Slept out in 55 degree weather no wind in a no seeum bivy tent wrapped in one of those "up to 25 degree Extreme" bag liners then wrapped in the thoroughly punched mylar. No condensation.
Proto 2 a $6 mylar emergency sleeping bag and I used a manual two hole punch and put 75-150 holes. Slept out with no condensation and about 4 am slipped as wrapped into a usgi patrol bag and slept for 1 1/2 hour. No condensation.
proto 3 Getting serious now. a $16 SOl (Adventure medical )Bivy. This time I punched a whole lot less holes so I did have some condensation once I spent an hour in a usgi intermediate bag. I mean with that army bag it was really hot then.
Revision 4 same $16 bivy but I cut a series of 2" by 1/8th" slits about 2' apart with a one ince widthwise gap avross the from neck to above the knees. After sleeping a couple hours in a 0 degre bag I was clammie BUT NOT WET below the knees, More to come.

[hunter63]

Looks like some effort is going into this....hope you come up with a method that works.
Press on!

[Rick]

Or punch on as it were.

[SSG HAWK]

I did end up putting a fair amount of packing tape for reinforcement but it added little weight. So what I now have is a mylar reflective blanket that has maybe 5% or less hole area and the remainder is the reflective area.
Proto 5: $26 adventure medical bivy which is much stronger, will not fray when cut and is soft on the inside. I have cut all around it and installed 6" velcro pieces every 6" where by I can mismatch the velcro creating little tunnel openings all around the outer edge. I have installed a tarp zipper in the center chest area to improve egress and to allow max ventilation if I need it. I also have cut a foot to head slit 2-3 inches next to the zipper on one side also with velco pieces and plan to do the same on the other side of the zipper. I am thinking I am going to need to put maybe six rows of punched holes (stronger that cut slits) the whole bag lenght about 2-3 inches apart over the chest just to make sure there is adequate ventilation. Since this may be the last version, I am going to want the holes to look nice where so far I have not cared. This material is so strong I plan to use very little packing reinforcement.

Bottom line is it looks like with some packing tape, a $6 emergency sleeping bag (or a $26 bivy if you are so inclined) , a couple feet of stick on velcro to make an opening to make it easier to get in and out of and a manual (or electric if you have one) 1, 2 or 3 hole punch and some sort of a cloth bag liner, the mylar reflective blanket condensation problem may be solved. Now if we would only get some freezing weather in Texas so I could have a real test.

All suggestions welcome.

[Wise Old Owl]

OK let me preface this - I DID NOT READ THE ENTIRE THREAD> but I see clear problems.... In super cold weather - or high humidity indigenous Indians did not pitch tepee that way! they would build a small fire from local grasses and near peat to burn slowly in the middle and and the vent at the top was open not tied together like in the picture. The bottom of the Tipi was open to add chimney like venting..My source is very old movies and you can take exception to that................ But keep in mind when were shooting in the thirties there were advisers on set. Hides were used to keep up off the ground and warm, got to love buffalo smell.yea....

[Wise Old Owl]

crap now I had wished I had read this - now I have to come back tomorrow.

[SSG HAWK]

Owl I think you are right on and it was Rick that pointed out this very idea that started me on my quest. Lots of open ventalation down low on the sides and all over my trunk. Since the holes are paper punch size they let the moisture out but I still get a very large percentage of reflective benefit. I slept on top of the bed last night 75 or so degres in side the expensive Bivy Bag with the full lenght slits. No condensation but that was because the side keep coming open becase I only have small amounts of velcro on the one side. I just spent an hour in it all closed up laying on the bed watching a movie and I can see I am going to need to put the 6 or 8 rows of paper punch holes every 2- 3 inches from neck to below the knees. I just have to figure out how to do it so it will look neat. (OCD don't you Know.) The concept worked perfectly in the $16 bivy bag so I am pretty show it will work in the much stronger &26 bivy bag; so much so that I orderred a $300 0 degree down bag last night. Planning on a camping trip with a similarly crazy friend to the Texas Panhandle this winter where -20 is very possible. Wife also is making me a very nice Mummy bag liner out of an Arny poncho liner so at least when they find the corpse it should be nicely wrapped up.

I have looked all over youtube and google and have not found anyone trying something like this; just alot of people complaining about condensation. Has anyone on this board played around with something similar?

[SSG HAWK]

Sourdough (or should I say "Mr. Boots") could I impose upon you to call up or email SJJ and get his thoughts? Sounds like he may have already solved the entire issue. You can feel free to mention that I also must not be right in the head or I would not be obsessing about this. (But it is pretty damn fun when it works!)Thanks.

[Rick]

I think you just touched base with SJJ. The other issue to remember with tents is convection currents. You are venting in and low where the cooler air is and venting out at the top where the warmer air is. You will get some convection of air when there is no breeze so the condensation will be pulled out through the top with the warmer air. You need to get condensation off of you, i.e., body moisture but more importantly breath. Then once it's off of you it has to be vented away so it doesn't collect inside bags (which you are accomplishing with your most admirable tests) and out of the tent so it doesn't collect on the inside walls.

I think AS's conviction that you start with clothing is spot on. But I also like what you are doing here. My liner is silk, which is a pain because it likes to move with you but is comfortable from a warmth and condensation perspective. I've even used a bag protector as a sleeping bag because the top breaths and the bottom prevents moisture from coming through. With a pad underneath of course. I'm the worlds worst at body moisture. When I get in a car in the winter all the windows fog up. I'm not sweating I just exchange a lot of water, I guess, along with all the hot air (before some one else says it). But as long as my tent is set up with the vents open I don't have a problem.

[hunter63]

OK let me preface this - I DID NOT READ THE ENTIRE THREAD> but I see clear problems.... In super cold weather - or high humidity indigenous Indians did not pitch tepee that way! they would build a small fire from local grasses and near peat to burn slowly in the middle and and the vent at the top was open not tied together like in the picture. The bottom of the Tipi was open to add chimney like venting..My source is very old movies and you can take exception to that................ But keep in mind when were shooting in the thirties there were advisers on set. Hides were used to keep up off the ground and warm, got to love buffalo smell.yea....


Not trying to give you a bad time.
So have you gone back and read the post on the Tipi?

That was a storage 6 pole rig with no attempt to 'live in it" necessarily, although I could be a temporary shelter.

Your information is mostly incorrect, you need to do a little more research
Remember......Guys in old movies had 6 guns that held 100's of rounds.

Tip... trenches to fire pit were used for fresh air, bottoms were down as tight as possible so the air exchange took place in the center.
Tops flaps were adjusted for temps, wind conditions, rain...etc and they were never really water proof with the sticks and all.

Occupents slept on low platforms or the ground, on hair on hides around the outside, master of the lodge in the back facing the door/with number one wife.......MIL slept by the door near wood pile.
This was mine in a "summer set", smoke poles wide open, door to the east........
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y139/hunter63/Tipicrop.jpg

[Beans]

I have read the complete posting and unless I missed it NO one mentioned not putting your gear against the sidewall of your your tent. My experience has shown that if you place anything against the sidewall of your tent is allows moisture to "seep' through the tent wall and collect on the "gear" leaning against the tent wall. I always keep an air space between my gear and the tent wall.

Yes I am talking about gear on the INSIDE of your tent being put up against the INSIDE of your tent wall.

[Rick]

Hunter - Is that tipi double walled? It looks like it. That will also make a huge difference in condensation from the outside.

[hunter63]

It has a liner, that ties up around the inside of the poles, about 40 inches high.

Idea being air can go up the inside of the wall, between the wall and liner, and out but keep drafts down to the occupants.

Original tipi's were made of hides.

So far the best set of planes and references I've found.....
http://www.motherearthnews.com/Nature-Community/1970-01-01/The-Plains-Indian-Tipi.aspx

[whitis]

tMother nature likes to get revenge on us for crawling out of the sea and causing trouble. Build a roof, floor, and walls, to code, and water will still find ways to infiltrate. Can't win for losing.


If you cut slits in sheet materials, it is generally a good idea to punch or drill holes at the ends of the slit to eliminate the stress risers which cause the slit to propagate (tear). For smaller perforations, use a sewing machine with no thread.

There is a class of products known as permeable radiant barriers. Aluminized/metalized tyvek(tm) or poly tarp style construction. http://www.radiantguard.com/, www.ecofoil.com, www.atticfoil.com, tyvek thermawrap (high permeability), tyvek enercor (not metalized, 80% reflectivity), etc.Variety of weights/strength/thicknesses. Cost is around $0.13/sqft but you generally need to buy a minimum of 500-100 square feet. Also available in bubble wrap insulated styles. There are a variety of potential survival uses for a material like this. Sleeping bags, sleep sacks, tarps, poncho/tarp with grommets, tents/yurts/shelters, blankets, coveralls, rain suits, jackets, pants, shirts, biohazard isolation cells, biohazard suits, emergency roof repair, sun shielding (A/C or power failure), solar cookers, etc. Ideally, you want something that is light, very tear resistant, highly reflective, waterproof and a wind barrier while still being breathable, fire retardant, mildew resistant, UV resistant, and has a maximum pore size small enough to block pathogens, and just the right amount of breathability.

[NZ_Nate]

Having any kind of clothing that is quick drying is a good thing. Having quick drying clothes that keep you warm, even better.

I agree with the fast drying thing. What do you guys think of the Bear Grylls survival Shirts (http://www.beargryllsstore.com/buy/bear-originals-long-sleeved-survivor-shirt-210463) (and other B.G. gear)? Is the newer technology worth it for longer term outdoor survival (living)? Or Is good old fashion wool (http://www.woolrich.com/p-4741cc.shtml) the way to go?

Or how about "new" fashioned wool (http://nz.icebreaker.com/Long-Sleeve/mens-tops-long-sleeve,en,sc.html) . . .

[NZ_Nate]

What a great group of posts! Learning a lot from all you guys. I had some thoughts.

The best way I have ever found to dry gear in rain/ high humidity is to have what I call a "hotbox". A hot box is similar to what has been described before with having a fire in a tipi. More accurately a hot box is a well ventilated space which is temp controlled to a very HIGH temp. As close to you can get to the temperature just before your clothes/bedding/gear start to burn, melt or get damaged. Its a different temperature for different things. You basically want to turn the moisture to gas which can be released. Your "baking" the wet out of your stuff. BUT . . . it has to be well ventilated so that the steam coming off your gear doesn't just go back into it. Let me be clear, this is not a "livable" space. Which makes it a bit different than the fire in the Tipi idea.

Couple different versions are:

3ft x 3ft x 3ft wood box which you can hang over your fire or stove. (ply wood works good or lash some poplar together) It would have large vent holes on the top and bottom and a "rack inside about 1 foot from the bottom to lay your gear on. Make it bigger or smaller as you wish. Obviously this doesn't really work if you are not in a "long term" camping spot.

More portable option:
Carry a good quality canvas tarp with you that can be set up tipi style to do the same type of thing but on the ground with hot coals inside. maintaining good ventilation but high temperature is the key which is why I love quality canvas. You should be able to see the steam coming off the canvas as the moisture tries to escape.

The basic idea is to create an enclosed area where the heat is high enough to counter the atmospheric moisture but not burn your gear.

As far as keeping things dry under wet/humid conditions:

Dealing specifically with shelter and bedding: I think that having gear that ventilates well is the first step. Next, for ground cover I have found the best to be a plastic tarp down under the tent with a solid 1 inch layer of DRY pine needles on top (and extending out past the edge of your tent at least a foot) with a good CANVAS tarp on top of that. Then your tent (or whatever you are using).

The logic behind this is that the plastic will keep the moisture from the ground from coming up and hopefully rain water from coming in as well. The moisture from inside your tent that doesn't get vented upwards will be sucked down through the canvas and absorbed by the needles. This has never failed me even in the wettest conditions. Unfortunately finding lots of dried pine needles in already wet weather can be tough sometimes. Here in NZ we have dead, dry fern branches nearly everywhere which do just as well if not better.


************
Some other thoughts on dampness
(don't read unless your really interested)
************

I guess the way I see it, you have two different categories:
1. Dampness of stuff on, or touching, your body
vs.
2. Dampness of stuff off, or not touching, your body.

Sorry this might get long, but I am just trying to think out loud here.
The reason I feel like they are separate in my mind is because I can deal with stuff being damp, but not making ME damp and therefore cold. So keeping items in category #1 dry seems of much greater importance.

As far as dampness for Category #1
We are combating two sources of moisture,
-Atmospheric Moisture and
-Bodily Moisture
From my experience the best way to combat bodily moisture is to stay cool and not over work your body. That way your body does not have to sweat as much to cool you down. I believe that this is one of the biggest mistakes of new outdoors people: not correctly cooling the body or over working the body. Unfortunately this is often not too controllable for people who might be carrying a bit of extra weight around. Extra weight is great for the winter but terrible for the damp warm weather which is what this thread seems to be about in general.

So I felt like that point needs to be made: Dampness is not as bad if its not making ME damp. And controlling bodily produced moisture is largely a matter of controlling your temperature better. (drink more water etc.)

I firmly believe in first wearing a good "wicking" layer all the time. I have tried all types from under armor to cotton to wool and I have NEVER found a better "under" cloth than Merino Wool. Merino is a type of sheep which lives HIGH in the New Zealand Alps. This wool has some particular trates that normal wool just doesn't. There is a brand which makes some really great Merino products called IceBreaker (http://icebreaker.com) (no I do not work for them or even know them, I just LOVE their stuff) if you guys have used this stuff and found something better, please let me know!

Anyway, I know that was stupidly long but its just my thoughts. Please rebuff me. I can take it.

[BENESSE]

I concur on "Icebreaker" merino wool anything. "Stoic" too. It is expensive but worth every penny. I usually watch for sales and have gotten a lot of stuff from Steepandcheap, usually at 30% off. A few layers from thin to medium work wonders in unpredictable temps, and I found nothing better in blistering heat than a nice thin wool T.

[edr730]

If I want to stay warmer in my bag, I'll put on a pair of sweatpants and sweatshirt or more if I need to. If I need to, I'll slip inside an extra sleeping bag. If it's hot, I'll wear less and open the bag. If I use a tarp, I'll sleep with branches beside me or throw the tarp over a sapling to make an umbrella to peak the tarp or I'll use any other method to drain off the condensation and rain. If all I have is a blanket, then it goes over my head so I'll be warmer. Your breath and moisture keep you warm if you have nothing more to sleep with. You can dry out later. Often enough someone begins to explain to me about moisture and the value of fashionable underwear. I've never noticed the difference. I don't care much for getting up in the cold with bare skin whether sleeping inside or outside.
Beans make a very important and basic point that many forget...don't let the tent touch your bag or you'll get wet if there is moisture of any kind. The tipi with the tarp would make a fine area to sleep in. Much better than most tents. The water will flow down the tarp to the lower edges or out the top. The only problem with such a tipi is that you may get drips, on the inside, from where the tarp is allowed to wrinkle horizontal. The same happens in tents. The same tipi makes a perfect clothes dryer if some limbs are left on the poles on the inside. Just take off the tarp and hang the clothes on the cut off limbs and build a fire in the middle....you can twist the poles so the cut off limbs are on the outside of the tripod too...dried my clothes countless times like this.
Any tarp or ground cover that sticks out farther than the tent better be going downhill from the tent. I've never seen one that was but it could be made with a grade down from the tent with some effort. Most people make them in some tall grass and the ground tarp has a big lean toward the tent and catches all the water that falls off the sides of the tent. Gives it the old water trough effect.

[hunter63]

Several good points here.
Plastic under tent or shelter, good idea, but do not extend past walls.

Dry needles or leaves or what ever good idea as well,... we have used straw under tents and Tipi's in winter 'frozen butt" rendezvouses, more to prevent moisture being 'sucked up from the ground' when the interior is heated.
When breaking camp, straw stays frozen to ground, till spring, (or thaw)

Trenches around the perimeter. to allow for drainage, or run off and prevent the extended ground cloth to be rolled up in a rain catcher.

Tent or shelter ventilation, usually not a problem on primitive lodges, would be more of a concern with tents.... and I would imagine tented over hammocks
Nothing like waking up to find icicles from you breath hanging down.

Lodge or shelter placement, side hill steps or level ground below ridge line out of wind good idea, but watch out for drainage's...tent in ditch not good idea.

Good comments, lets kkep them coming.

[hunter63]

Just noticed double post, oops!

[SSG HAWK]

Ya know when I first started posted my wild hair, space blanket ideas I was hoping as an FNG here that I was not sticking my head too far above the berm because of the considerable amount of greatly knowledgable and solid thinkers on this board. Now, seeing all the great additional knowledge that is being shared, I am very glad I did. Not to slight any of the great responses, a couple really jumped out.(I have been away so I am just catching up.)

Mosture in my tent has not been an issue since the entire roof is netting and the one night it rained like mad everything still was fine. I also have an Alps Mountaineering Mystique 2 which has what is claimed as one of the best adjustable vents. But after these recent posts, I am going to install a couple more adjustable high vents on that tent and then take the Tipi idea and make sure I have some adjustable lower vents for air input which hopefully I won't need but it is all part of the fun of the project. I definately get the multiple points that we need the lower to upper air movement.

10 stars on don't let the gear touch the side of the tent.

Clothing. Although my current tests are in shorts and a teeshirt (this is Texas)when I go out in anything approaching upper thirties F I always wear wicking long underwear. I'd wear them to sleep in at home if my wife would knock off the laughter. I prefer polypro over the wool but I use both. As I continue my testing, which will cause me over time to have fewer holes so to maximize the reflective properties, I fully expect to appreciate the wicking abilities of my favorite sleeping "long johns."

Circles versus slits in the material. I only have had a couple tears using the very cheap mylar when I cut the slits but that mostly had to do with the fact that the packing tape I used close to covered every area that was slit. Cutting slits was very time consuming and dangerous process with my shaking hands. Circles rule! Got a couple old three hole office punches with a goal of assembling the parts and then punching nine holes at a time and discovered that the punches were so worn out that I had a lot of semi-holes. Bought a new adjustable three hole punch and it went so fast I gave up on my original idea of buying multiple new adjustable 3 hole punches and building a 9 hole mother of all punches. Also of interest was that when I used the three hole punch on the Adventure Medical Bivy 2 (now replaced with the "SOL Thermal Bivy") that I had no tearing problems since the material is much thicker. Got crazy trying to make multiple full length slits with periodic velcro which just was a big pain since when I rolled over the velcro opened up (This particular Bivy is a litle narrow for my "mature" body.) Bought a new SOL Bivy and plan on using that one with just the three hole punch and installing some "Mature cut" pleates on the sides.Since this Bivy has a soft material inside I will just bring the poncho liner (which my wife modified into a pretty neat mummy bag shape) as a back up.

Attic radiant barrier. Great minds you know. After a couple hours of web searching I found a firm (Atticfoil.com) that basically laminates the milar on each side of (lite weight)Blue tarps who sold me a 240 sq. ft. roll delivered for $50. I made a top blanket that was about 6" wider than the Sol Bivy, put a ton of 3 hole punch holes in about two hours. (The layout- neatness counts- takes the most time.) Last night back in the bivy netting tent it got about 58 degrees F and I slept like a baby wrapped up in my poncho liner mummy bag wrapped in the punched attic radiant barrier top blanket tucked under me. Had a bodily function break at 230AM and still wrapped up slid into my army modular sleep system (brand new)Black intermediate bag and zipped it up to my mid-chest. I expected to get soaking wet since that bag is rated about in the 0 to +10 range and I'm in the poncho mummy bag wrapped up like a baked potatoe in heavy alum foil. Alarm went off at 6 AM and there was no dampness or claminess anywhere. Big surprise. I think I am almost there. We have a low 40s nite scheduled next week and that will be a much better test. This attic material is just a bit heavier than the heaviest alum foil you can buy at the grocery store but has that blue tarp type reinforcement so is very strong. It would not feel good next to skin but I don't recall any excessive noise last night. They did tell me that long term repeated folding might cause dlamination so I plan to figure out how I will pack it, and posibly use some tape to reinforce it. I think I am going to cut the blanket head to toe lenght wise in the very middle and reattach it with a tape "joint" since I know I will be making a hard fold there for packing and I think the "potatoe blanket" might drape over me better at night with this tape hinge.

Next project is to make a very "Holy Potatoe Blanket" for the outside of the bedroll so I will be ready with that and my punched SOL Bivy in my 40 degree F bag when we get some below freezing weather in the next 90 days or so. A friend and I are planing on doing some below zero testing in the Texas Panhandle this winter. Once these projects are field tested, I plan on funding the making of this stuff by a Boy Scout troop or two for their use.

Thanks and please keep those great, observations, ideas and suggestions coming in. I appreciate them and this board.

Regards.

[SSG HAWK]

Whitis, I loved your sewing machine without thread idea but when I mentioned it to the wife she said something I did not quite catch about not with her million dollar machine...buy my own darn machine off of ebay ...and then stck it some where that I did not hear. (I am currently searching ebay.) This should greatly speed up the building process and greatly increase the reflectivity. World Class Idea!

Thinking about what Whitis and NZ Nate said: although I make my tent footprints out of tyvek (1"" narrower then the tent all the way around), is there any reason I could not use the attic radiant barrier (sans the three hole punches) to make a winter tent foot print? Or even a winter tent with a boat load of ventalation vents? (Yes I have way too much time on my hands but if I have my own darn sewing machine..........

[SSG HAWK]

Whitis,
I found a HEAVY DUTY old Singer 306W sewing machine on Ebay that supposedly works fine. If I use your great Needle without thread idea, what size holes should I put in and how to estimate the number of holes or linear inches of blank sewing holes to put in?

Can it be something simple like the largest needle the machine will handle and just draw and then sew top to bottom lines one inch apart over the entire SOL Bivy bag except for any known areas of hugh stress? Or in an abundance of caution should I do top to bottom lines/sewing 1/2 inch apart?

I assume I also need to do the bottom as well as the top?

I found it interesting as a novice that although I can not readily blow through the existing holes in the attic radiant barrier, I can easily see the lite through the holes.

Regards,

[Wise Old Owl]

I know the original post was mostly about keeping gear and shelter dry, but when I'm out in the green, most of the gear I need to stay dry is clothing. I also rarely ever make a fire, even when there is an established fire ring, so I can't rely on that to keep me dry.

Staying dry:

* Avoid cotton. Cotton kills. In heat I wear just a nylon shell, in cold I combine that with something like underarmor and fleece.

* Sleeping bag made of 100% synthetic fill. It'll wick the water away from your body and clothing.

* I don't sleep on the ground. I hang in the air in a 4-season jungle hammock with an XL rain fly. Rock to sleep like a baby without every picking up moisture from the ground. Snow or rain, I've stayed warm and dry.

* Fresh pair of socks for each day I -plan- to be out. Hang the damp pair on a drying line under the rain fly. In cold weather, I'll wear two pair of wool socks and alternate which one is the inner layer each day I'm on the trail.

* Don't walk point after a hard rain. Let the guy in front of you be the one to knock all the water off the leaves.

Got thru page 1 Rick and this is the best post - I am a little Leary of Gortex boots when I have seen Indians in the Americas do better with flip flops made from steel belted tires. Hey its just they do not appear to dry out. Discovered trail runners from Solomon and its a close out - Waterproofed and meshed, drys on the trail and comfy in 15 minutes after WADING thru water.


AND HUNTER 63 feel free to give me a hard time - I am here to learn too, So fill out that post -with more detail.

Several good points here.
Plastic under tent or shelter, good idea, but do not extend past walls.

I never trench - I pick places where the water cannot pool. I prefer a location that is head's up an elevated on a slope.

Most tents are poor ventilators, I have slept in three and four day down pours and a bathub floor with 4 inch sides "andre Jamet" in the past has saved me over and over again - rare to find that on a tent today - too heavy.

Solutions - 1 more vote for the hammock in wet weather.

[Rick]

I don't disagree with you on the Goretex vs. trail runners. That's not a fair comparison, though, based on the post. My point was even though your boots are wet your feet still stay warm. I won't intentionally wear my boots through a stream that forces them to get wet unless I have no option. If it's warm then trail runners are great. I like my Tivas for that too. Don't have to worry about wet boots with those.

[ClayPick]

A two foot thick bed of balsam fir boughs works wonders any time of the year.

[Wise Old Owl]

I don't disagree with you on the Goretex vs. trail runners. That's not a fair comparison, though, based on the post. My point was even though your boots are wet your feet still stay warm. I won't intentionally wear my boots through a stream that forces them to get wet unless I have no option. If it's warm then trail runners are great. I like my Tivas for that too. Don't have to worry about wet boots with those.

I guess that this should be a separate thread, I actually encourage wading threw streams when hiking - because Tech Pants, wool, smart wool socks and some Solomon Runners and folks..."I AM HAPPY" Trudge thru and keep hiking ten minutes later these "relatively new" Hike systems are near dry!Temp is a big deal and so is wicking... so we really are not disagreeing - just see that we are looking at the same issue from a different perspective.

[Wise Old Owl]

SSG HAWK - wow - I noticed you ordered a O degree bag- and you live in Texas... Where are you going?



I'm a bit surprized seeing peoples avatars that hats have not been mentioned. I have known people with leather brimed hats that lived under the shelter of there hats and were damn proud of them. I keep a booney hat that is light and folds up so fits in pack easily. A good hat keeps your head face and neck dry. It all kinds of adds up to keep you dry.

A good hat keeps the rain and sun, and is only second to your dog when it comes to friends.....

[SSG HAWK]

I guess whitis is off the net. Can anyone else offer insight into the needle size and how much spacing between the top to bottom of the bag threadless needle holes I need to put in the Adventure Medical SOL Bivy to BE CERTAIN that the moisture escapes?

Additionally, Tyvek just donated a 750 square foot roll of their permeable radiant tyvek for my project. Recall that I am trying to come up with prototypes and patterns for use as Boy Scout Troop projects. If anyone has any project ideas please send them on.
45 degrees out tonite. Finally alittle more realistic test.

[SSG HAWK]

Owl,
Hopefully Montana in February. Elsewise the Texas Panhandle (Think Lonesome Dove) (And possibly I might just be a gear junkie.)

[Wise Old Owl]

That explains it.... thanks for the extra info - there was a clear hole in the thread OK

now fill out post 64 - cus I don't understand what you are trying to get across!

[SSG HAWK]

Got to run now. I will do a better job of explaining tonight. Thanks for all of your info. Regards.

[MiddleWolf]

This is where old fashioned wool come into play. It can supply warmth even when wet. But just the dampness around usually will allow it to work if it's not drenched. A thin wool garment under Gore Tex will help a lot.

[SSG HAWK]

Sorry Owl.
On post 58 I was aking Whitis if using his World Class threadless sewing maching irea (as opposed to using a 3 ring office punch to make the vent holes like I have been) was as simple as using the bigeest needle your sewing machine will handle and threadless sewing from chest to feet every inch around the entire Bivy. I want to make sure when I use this in cold weather inside a lighter weight bedroll that the moisture POSITIVELY VENTS from the mylar Bivy. I want the warmth without the wet! I guess the answer is put in as many holes as you can before the Bivy falls apart.
Regards,

[Wise Old Owl]

No don't be sorry - Here is my take When you pitch a tent or build a house you are going to heat it or cool it. Therefore condensation somewhere. A damp basement causes bugs, a dehumidifier - no bugs... a tent? your perspiration will condense in the strangest places - on one night super cold - on the top of the down bag, legs and feet, so....


FYI I found early paintings - of teepees with smoke coming out of the vent.

[SSG HAWK]

Using a number 8 needle with a zig zag stitch and no thread with the tyvek radiate material folded over 10 thickness allows a whole lot of holes in quick order. In fact when you hold it up to the light you wonder how it holds together with a hole every 1/16 or 1/32 of an inch. No condensation at all but not as warm due that many holes. Tried a version last night with about 10% of those holes but I was way over baged so I wolk up at 2 feeling I was wet when I really only was damp. Considering I had silk long johns, wrapped in the poncho liner mummy inside a perferated Bivy 2 inside a 40 degree bag and it only got down to 45. The concepy proved its point if you do not over bag. Still working on thr optinum number of holes.

Next concept. anyone familiar with the big anges series of bags? Any one into creating new sleeping bag designs?My question is if you have a double layer bag wouldn't it increase the insulation value if we could create an air pocket between the double layers such as puting something like three zipper liners the lenght of the bag between the layers creating about a 3/4 inch air pocket . Any one knowledgable about this? Rick please move this as apprpriate. Very busy at work so may not get back for a few days. Regards,