Will we return to this life?

[Alaskan Survivalist]

As a boy this is how I remember Alaska natives and saw thier transistion into modern civilization. They still have subsistence rights as do I through my wife but it is not the same. You primative survivalists will like this video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b-XP30aG8bE

[Tripwire]

I have friends that are Athabaskan.
The language was taught on the rez even when the children were stolen by the government and reeducated in the 30s.
Now only a handful can even mutter words. Most are down here in Seattle.

[Alaskan Survivalist]

I saw how rapidly native culture has deteriorated (mostly since the 70's) with exposier to modern technology and in a relatively brief time from the stand point of history the times it has brought all humanity to the brink of extinction and wonder what level of industrialization would be safe or sustainable. There may be some future that we can achieve a balance though technology but I consider the odds very slim and continueing down the wrong path so I try to look into the past to see at what point there was balance. I think the plains Indians was the peak of human civilization and we have been going down hill since. There may have been a point of the westward expansion that we went past sustainability. The railroad was the begining of loosing our self reliance and shipping our sustanence from elsewhere becoming weaker in the process. I guess what I am asking is what point in the past should we return to that worked or where did we go wrong?

[lucznik]

The railroad was the begining of loosing our self reliance and shipping our sustanence from elsewhere becoming weaker in the process. I guess what I am asking is what point in the past should we return to that worked or where did we go wrong?

I'm not sure what you mean by "weaker." Today we live far longer, healthier, and more comfortable lives than any other people in history. We do not suffer from diseases that devastated entire nations in the past. We enjoy a level of infant mortality lower than was ever thought possible. Millions of people with "disabilities" (including such simple things as bad eyesight) who in the past would have been relegated to a life of begging are able to enjoy productive and contributory lives. We enjoy opportunities to learn, to experience, to travel, etc. that would have been unfathomable to our ancestors. Indeed, even the ability to "commune with" and appreciate nature which so many of us find appealing and sustaining is largely a function of our not having to battle against nature on a daily basis for our survival.

The popular perception of Native/Aboriginal practices and their "balance" with nature is highly romanticized and inaccurate. "Native" peoples tended to suffer much from exposure, disease, bad hygiene, malnourishment, and lack of medical care, etc. and they almost always died before reaching 40 yrs. old.

Any of you at or above say, 50 yrs old should consider that a true return to an ancient, "traditional," non-industrialized, "at-one-with-nature" lifestyle would mean that you would almost assuredly already be dead.

Just sayin...

[Alaskan Survivalist]

The point is where is the proper balance? After the advent of penicilian? Before nuclear bombs? I romantize nothing I am strictly talking about balancing consumption with renewable resources. I can't believe you feel the world has that balance now. Soon nothing will be left.

[hunter63]

The point is where is the proper balance? After the advent of penicilian? Before nuclear bombs? I romantize nothing I am strictly talking about balancing consumption with renewable resources. I can't believe you feel the world has that balance now. Soon nothing will be left.

I have often wondered this my self.
Having some interaction with the Amish and Mennonite communities, they too seemed to have picked out a time period, that they feel is "right" for them.
From what I can gather, late 1700's and early 1800's. ( why not 1957? '57 Chevys, B&W TV, Am radio.....)
This includes their religion, a way of life, customs, tools etc.

They do have problems relating to the modern world, as do the native Americans, and some of the methods/solutions aren't exactly the answer.
As they choose to continue to live their lives, in they own way, they achieve their balance, as best as they can.

I do believe that there is a balance, but it's kind up to you in what you believe, and what you do about it.

If you choose to press on in your own customs, and beliefs, I believe YOU can reach a balance in your life.

If you choose to lament the passing of older beliefs and customs you are going to be disappointed and disillusioned.

Just how good were the "good old days"?

[Alaskan Survivalist]

It is not that life was perfect, it was isolated. One problem did not affect as many. Interdependence subjects us to global collapse not just a regional or personal problem. What happens in the middle east today can change the world. 200 years ago, who cared? Problems where isolated.

[lucznik]

I can't believe you feel the world has that balance now. NO, your are definitely correct in asserting that the world is "out of balance." I'm just not sure it is reasonable to assert that it ever was "in balance." There certainly is no evidence to support such a supposition. As Hunter63 put it; "just how good were the 'good old days?'" And even if there was a time when there indeed was "balance," it's too late now. Pandora's box, so to speak, has already been opened.


What happens in the middle east today can change the world. 200 years ago, who cared? Problems where isolated. Yes, they were isolated. But, they were also more acute. If you lived in Haiti today when the big earthquake hit (and presuming you survived the initial damage), there are all sorts of sources for aid, relief, and help that you can access. Your life is still changed and it certainly won't be easy, but at least there is help available. 200 years ago if you lived in Haiti under similar post-disaster circumstances, you died.

[Alaskan Survivalist]

NO, your are definitely correct in asserting that the world is "out of balance." I'm just not sure it is reasonable to assert that it ever was "in balance." There certainly is no evidence to support such a supposition. As Hunter63 put it; "just how good were the 'good old days?'" And even if there was a time when there indeed was "balance," it's too late now. Pandora's box, so to speak, has already been opened.

By the most conservative estimate man has been here over 6000 years not consuming faster than the planet could regenerate. Studies indicate a balance at current levels would require 2/3's of the population to die off. Shortages of comodities will close pandora's box. How good or bad it was is not the issue. Start another thread for that. The question is at what point in our past should we return to for our survival. No time was perfect but which time period was best or most in balance with continued existence.

[lucznik]

What 2/3 of the population are you wanting to kill off? Do you think they'll go willingly?

A few weeks ago I ate a pomegranate. It's my favorite fruit in the whole world. I anxiously await their arrival in the store every year. They don't grow where I live; pretty much no fruits grow where I live. "Returning" would mean giving up my pomegranates - and all other fruits.

This morning when I woke up I immediately put on my eyeglasses. With them I see. Without them I would be all-but-completely blind. "Returning'" would mean giving up my eyesight.

On Monday morning my 4 year old daughter is having surgery. It is (by today's standards) a minor thing; easily fixed. "Returning" would mean she would just have to spend her childhood suffering.


Thanks, but no thanks.

[Alaskan Survivalist]

Thanks, but no thanks.

That's how I feel about you humping my leg. You'll have to get your pleasure elsewhere. I just lost interest.

[lucznik]

You can't possibly be so insecure about your own ideas that your only option is to degenerate into gross personal insults; can you?

[crashdive123]

Watch the video if you like, but this has quickly gone down hill. I think it has reached the bottom. Let it go. Walk away.

[Rick]

I have to agree with lucznik on this one. I'm not certain there was ever a balance. I understand and appreciate the point you are trying to get across but there are popular theories that man was at least part of the cause for the demise of the Saber Tooth Tiger and Woolly Mammoths along with a host of others. It's known as the "Overkill Hypothesis". There are even some theories that Neanderthal either became extinct at the hands of Home Sapiens or was bred extinct by him (us).

Obviously, there were other pressures placed on these animals but pressure from man can not be overlooked. Had they not been hunted who is to say they would not have survived?

So to say that man ever achieved a balance with nature is incorrect, in my opinion. Man has always exploited nature to his benefit with little overall regard for the impact. To use lucznik's term, romanticizing about some period of man being in tune with nature is also incorrect. There just weren't enough men around to devastate to the degree we do today. But it's always been "you die, me eat" when it comes to man vs. nature.

Source for Overkill Hypothesis: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quaternary_extinction_event

Source for Neanderthal Hypothesis: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neanderthal

[Rick]

Sorry, Crash. I was typing when you posted.

I do agree, there is no need to get personal.

[Justin Case]

Good Video, Thanks :)

[rwc1969]

I thought that was a cool video. I didn't watch the whole thing though, will go back and finish.

The "balance" is a good point. It's not so much that modern technology is a bad thing. What's bad is putting that technology into primitive hands. Which is what most of us do on a daily basis.

There's nothing wrong with modern medicine either other than the fact that we use it blindly and haphazardly.

It's kind of like going back in time and giving grenades as gifts to the cavemen, without instructions.

[rwc1969]

I have to agree with lucznik on this one. I'm not certain there was ever a balance. I understand and appreciate the point you are trying to get across but there are popular theories that man was at least part of the cause for the demise of the Saber Tooth Tiger and Woolly Mammoths along with a host of others. It's known as the "Overkill Hypothesis". There are even some theories that Neanderthal either became extinct at the hands of Home Sapiens or was bred extinct by him (us).

Obviously, there were other pressures placed on these animals but pressure from man can not be overlooked. Had they not been hunted who is to say they would not have survived?

So to say that man ever achieved a balance with nature is incorrect, in my opinion. Man has always exploited nature to his benefit with little overall regard for the impact. To use lucznik's term, romanticizing about some period of man being in tune with nature is also incorrect. There just weren't enough men around to devastate to the degree we do today. But it's always been "you die, me eat" when it comes to man vs. nature.

Source for Overkill Hypothesis: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quaternary_extinction_event

Source for Neanderthal Hypothesis: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neanderthal

I think that's a good point. We get better everyday at being more out of balance with nature than we ever were.

[Blasfemo]

the reason im here is that at least 20% of people in my country live bellow the limits of poverty... and this is Europe i dont even imagine the ROW... official statistic is a little different but 20% at least is the prediction i most think its correct... all my survival curiosity comes from the fact that i see more crime in areas that had none and seems the balance is going way off way fast.
i hope that only 2\3 of worlds pop has to go and i wanna be on the remaining 1\3... i remember seeing mad max and think "this could never be science will make it work, now im not so sure...

so i also dont think we never had a balance, we need to get technicians in charge of stuff and put our efforts to resolve worlwide issues instead of just fooling around, problem is people not always agree and thats were politics fails, change must come from the individual to the whole and not the other way around and today we have little heroes to get inspired upon and to teach us a "new" or sustainable way of living....

[Alaskan Survivalist]

Of all the threads I posted THIS is the one you choose to resurect? The whole discission was off topic because they did not get the basic premise. As a doomer I sometimes forget that most the world remains unaware of what is coming and want to remain that way. I also know they may as well because it is too late to change anything. Even those that just play at survival will have an edge. They can figure it out after it happens. Why you prepare is not as important as that you prepare. You would be better prepared if you knew what you were preparing for....Oh well.

[justin_baker]

The rights of native americans sometimes go too far......fishing is banned in many rivers in CA to protect the salmon, yet natives are allowed to dam the river!!!! What the hell!
There are way to many natives living off of welfare and profiting off of their crappy casinos. Its pathetic. It makes me so angry. They are betraying the values of their ancestors. Native american youth are leaving their wellfare ghettos and joining the mexican immigrant gangs. I see it happening all the time around here. I love native american culture but hardly any native americans truly deserve the rights that our government provides.


Anyways, yes, i do think that we will someday return to this life. Society is bound to crumble but its unlikely that the entire human race will go extinct.

[Alaskan Survivalist]

The rights of native americans sometimes go too far......fishing is banned in many rivers in CA to protect the salmon, yet natives are allowed to dam the river!!!! What the hell!
There are way to many natives living off of welfare and profiting off of their crappy casinos. Its pathetic. It makes me so angry. They are betraying the values of their ancestors. Native american youth are leaving their wellfare ghettos and joining the mexican immigrant gangs. I see it happening all the time around here. I love native american culture but hardly any native americans truly deserve the rights that our government provides.


Anyways, yes, i do think that we will someday return to this life. Society is bound to crumble but its unlikely that the entire human race will go extinct.

Yes it is pathetic. This world for the one they had. If only I could get all the Chinese to jump up at once...

[DOGMAN]

I don't know anything about balance or Native American rights...but, I wish there were some sort of nationwide Subsistence laws or something. So, that you could get a card and be eligible to harvest game and fish year round and live in a camp in the Nat'l Forest for longer than two weeks at one spot (away from parking lots/cars) so you could try to live a life in "balance" in the antiquated old school way- just to see if its really possible in this modern era

[Alaskan Survivalist]

I don't know anything about balance or Native American rights...but, I wish there were some sort of nationwide Subsistence laws or something. So, that you could get a card and be eligible to harvest game and fish year round and live in a camp in the Nat'l Forest for longer than two weeks at one spot (away from parking lots/cars) so you could try to live a life in "balance" in the antiquated old school way- just to see if its really possible in this modern era

This way of life is disappearing fast even in Alaska. All you have to do is look at population densities to see why. It will be more illegal as time goes by and wilderness survivalists will be criminals.

[Alaskan Survivalist]

The rights of native americans sometimes go too far......fishing is banned in many rivers in CA to protect the salmon, yet natives are allowed to dam the river!!!! What the hell!
There are way to many natives living off of welfare and profiting off of their crappy casinos. Its pathetic. It makes me so angry. They are betraying the values of their ancestors. Native american youth are leaving their wellfare ghettos and joining the mexican immigrant gangs. I see it happening all the time around here. I love native american culture but hardly any native americans truly deserve the rights that our government provides.


Anyways, yes, i do think that we will someday return to this life. Society is bound to crumble but its unlikely that the entire human race will go extinct.

If only I could get all the Chinese to jump up all at once....

[Rick]

I don't understand why folks point back to some period in time and say, "the way of life is gone". Isn't that sort of abstract? How far back would you need to go to say, "Too far back!" Isn't the way of life whatever way you live? And if you aren't living the way you want to isn't that your own fault? There are still plenty of places in the world where subsistence living can occur. It may not be in North Dakota or Alaska but you can sure live your life any way you want in the Congo or the Amazon.

Mankind in developed countries is safer, lives longer and a more healthy life than any previous generation. He's smarter, too, on the whole, because he's more educated. Just because someone doesn't choose to live in a grass hut and eat their fish raw doesn't make them blind to potential threats. Whether they choose to prepare or not doesn't make them stupid either. Maybe, they have a different belief system and they don't think the world is going to implode. Think about this, who are we to judge them on how they choose to live their life?

Not trying to be cross just throwing out some thoughts.

[BENESSE]

"Balance" takes all forms. Between what you want, and what you can afford...between what's good for you, and what's harmful...between what you would like to do and what you can do...on and on. We all grapple with it every day, some with more success, some, considerably less. Similar thing happens on a global scale. It's a fluid, ever-changing thing of give and take, risk and reward.

One might wonder how I can continue to live in NYC with all its drawbacks and potential dangers and I might wonder how one can continue to smoke knowing full well where it can lead.
We may not understand or agree with each others choices but making them can be equally hard.

[Alaskan Survivalist]

There are thousands of websites dedicated to sustainability. I made the false assumption that this was a forgone conclusion among survivalists and have no more interest in convincing people of this than I do other things. Try catching big fish on small hooks or leave the blood in your fish, I don't care. I know even less about peak oil than I do fishing. The topic I posted was which time period would be sustainable. How much of this life could we retain?

[Rick]

Now don't get your knickers in a twist. We're just discussing stuff. No one is trying to convince you of anything any more than you are trying to convince us. How you believe is perfectly fine. So to your topic.

Personally, I think every time frame has been sustainable or we wouldn't have survived. I really don't see any difference between growing corn by hand or by tractor. The only difference, really, is economy of scale. The basics still apply.

[DOGMAN]

I don't understand why folks point back to some period in time and say, "the way of life is gone". Isn't that sort of abstract? How far back would you need to go to say, "Too far back!" Isn't the way of life whatever way you live? And if you aren't living the way you want to isn't that your own fault? There are still plenty of places in the world where subsistence living can occur. It may not be in North Dakota or Alaska but you can sure live your life any way you want in the Congo or the Amazon.

I think we say things like, "that way of life is gone", because we are talking about the here and now- where we are standing- looking around now. And, for the most part here in the USA that way of life is gone. Why should one have to leave their family, friends and homeland to lead a simpler life based on just meeting their needs in a non-cash way? Most people don't want to leave the area they feel a sense of connection to...they want to become MORE connected to their environment- not pack up and leave it for some solitary existence in an unknown place. For many folks this is about simplyfying not complicating...moving to the Congo won't simplify things.

Interestingly, the Native Peoples of Alaska and the Yukon who held onto subsistence lifestyles longer than most other cultures have always viewed white people who go up North to "live off the land" as odd ducks...not because they want to live off the land- but that they have little or no family to do it with. To the Indians & Eskimo there connections to the land and to family were of equal importance.

[Alaskan Survivalist]

No twisted knickers here and I can prove it by being as off topic as everybody else. I picked up a cordless chainsaw yesterday. I have agonized over the decision to buy it for some time but finally did because it is so darn cute. I've been charging it all night and will try it out today. I will post results of test.

[Ken]

No twisted knickers here and I can prove it by being as off topic as everybody else. I picked up a cordless chainsaw yesterday. I have agonized over the decision to buy it for some time but finally did because it is so darn cute. I've been charging it all night and will try it out today. I will post results of test.

AS? If you run out of wood, you're welcome to come over to my place to test it. :innocent:

[Alaskan Survivalist]

I am confident the battery will run down before I run out of wood.

[Ken]

I am confident the battery will run down before I run out of wood.

Did I mention the cold beer? The awesome fishing in the area? The great beaches? :innocent:

[Alaskan Survivalist]

What's that compared to playing with a rechargable chainsaw in my yard?

[DOGMAN]

Personally, I think every time frame has been sustainable or we wouldn't have survived. I really don't see any difference between growing corn by hand or by tractor. The only difference, really, is economy of scale. The basics still apply.

I agree in the short term...sure we can say every time frame is sustainable. We're still here- we are still alive. We must be living a sustainable life- right?

Wrong- don't be short-sighted "sustainability" is long term- think in the Native American sense of how 7 generations in the future will be effected by our actions. We need to be analyzing our impact on the earth all the time- just because we are alive today- doesn't mean that our grandkids- grandkids will have an inhabitable planet. How much oil can the oceans handle? How many species can we kill off (plants, animals, bugs, etc..) before we do irrepairable damage that causes a slide to oblivion?

Farmers realized their practices were not sustainable years and years ago (so crop rotation and other practices were developed to protect the soil) Loggers realized Clear Cutting certain areas was not sustainable- so they minimized that practice to particular areas. People began to realize that unlimited harvest of game and fish was not sustainable so game limits were developed.
We have to keep reflecting on our actions or we will destroy the earth. To think we are "living sustainably" just because we are alive is really naieve.

As far as the difference between growing corn with a tractor or by hand...Forget about it- agriculture was the worst move in human history...we went from being hunters and gatherers with ample of free time, to being slaves of the soil. Agriculture was the original sin- we went from living in balance with the earth to controlling the earth when we started spreading seeds. If we would have stuck with hunting and gathering we wouldn't even be having this conversation right now!

[Ken]

What's that compared to playing with a rechargable chainsaw in my yard?

*I thought that my shallow attempt at bribery was obvious.* :innocent:

Because I'm trying to get you to play with it in MY YARD. If you have a log-splitter, you can play with that, too. Probably got at least 6 cords.

I'll be out back firing up the grill in case you're hungry when you arrive.

[DOGMAN]

I've always loved this joke....

The old Indian chief sat in his home on the reservation, smoking his ceremonial pipe, eyeing the two U.S. government officials sent to interview him. "Chief Two Eagles," one official began, "you have observed the white man for many years. You have seen all his progress and all his problems." The chief nodded. The official continued, "What do you think of all the white man has done?" The chief stared at the officials for more than a minute, and then calmly replied. "When white man found the land, Indians were running it. No taxes. No debt. Plenty buffalo, plenty beaver. Women did most of the work. Medicine man free. Indian men hunted and fished all the time." The chief paused, then added, "Only white man dumb enough to think he could improve system like that."

[Alaskan Survivalist]

Agriculture was the original sin- we went from living in balance with the earth to controlling the earth when we started spreading seeds. If we would have stuck with hunting and gathering we wouldn't even be having this conversation right now!

That is farther back than I was thinking but you may very well be right. I was thinking some time before the industrial revolution and after the development of steel. I think the plains indians was the peak of civilization. I have heard they had a form of passive agriculture but have not found much information about it. They would do things that would improve the environment for plants like diverting a stream or cutting a branch off a tree that was blocking the sun of a plant. This was the kind of discussion I wanted to have.

[Ken]

Here's the way I see it. The advances made by mankind - agriculture, science, manufacturing - are all good. The fact is, we have abused the process and the product.

We have poisoned much of the earth in the process, and we, mankind as a whole, have abused our capacity to produce and to consume, resulting in the over-population of this planet to a point of no return so far as sustainability or available resources go.

Given circumstances as they are, the worlds population will continue to grow exponentially. It's like we've built this great boat, and we just keep piling people aboard unaware of the fact that it will eventually sink or capsize. Nothing short of a cataclysmic event or a world-wide pandemic or famine will correct this situation. Period.

[Alaskan Survivalist]

Here's the way I see it. The advances made by mankind - agriculture, science, manufacturing - are all good. The fact is, we have abused the process and the product.

We have poisoned much of the earth in the process, and we, mankind as a whole, have abused our capacity to produce and to consume, resulting in the over-population of this planet to a point of no return so far as sustainability or available resources go.

Given circumstances as they are, the worlds population will continue to grow exponentially. It's like we've built this great boat, and we just keep piling people aboard unaware of the fact that it will eventually sink or capsize. Nothing short of a cataclysmic event or a world-wide pandemic or famine will correct this situation. Period.

or...no sex for the entire planet for 40 years.

[DOGMAN]

Ken, although I agree with what your saying in reality.
Philosphically though...how was the development of agriculture good? In fact how can we even call it an advancement.

[Ken]

or...no sex for the entire planet for 40 years.

I've thought about the effect of "skipping" one or two generations. What I fear is.........

A large percentage of babies born with birth defects to older parents.

A population incapable of performing the necessary jobs to sustain the rest, since most people are truly most productive between their 20's and 60's.

A huge population of seniors without any available medical care.

A complete lack of teachers - in or out of the classroom - to pass on knowledge and skills.

And that's just a short list.

[Ken]

Ken, although I agree with what your saying in reality.
Philosphically though...how was the development of agriculture good? In fact how can we even call it an advancement.

Without agriculture, most of our time would be devoted to hunting and gathering, leaving little or no time for manufacturing, science, commerce, the arts, etc. I, for one, enjoy driving a car, buying my ammunition, stopping for ice cream, and posting to this forum. I don't think any of these options would have come about without agriculture having come first.

[DOGMAN]

Without agriculture, most of our time would be devoted to hunting and gathering

Actually, Anthropological research states that hunters and gatherers enjoy more free time than any other type of culture. Agriculture societies have very little free time compated to H&G's

[Alaskan Survivalist]

Without agriculture, most of our time would be devoted to hunting and gathering, leaving little or no time for manufacturing, science, commerce, the arts, etc. I, for one, enjoy driving a car, buying my ammunition, stopping for ice cream, and posting to this forum. I don't think any of these options would have come about without agriculture having come first.

It really does not take that much time. One moose will feed you a long time and fish is even easier. One thing I like about the bush is all the time I have to progress. Like you I like the trappings of civilization but contrary to how most would think my ups and downs in life came from that. I do good out of town and build up land and then some day someone comes along and offers me more money than I can refuse and I take the money and go bezerk in the city, Blow all my money and then return to woods and start all over again. There are just too many temptations there. I've gotten older and don't know if I can do it over again, not as easy anyway, this is what's keeping me on the straight and narrow. I'm learning restraint but with gold at over a thousand an ounce the temptation is great. I have no problem making money, it's keeping it.

[Rick]

But I think you guys are thinking on a personal level. Killing a moose is fine as a hunter gatherer. You can feed yourself and your clan. What do you do for greens or clothing or steel or any of the other items that you WANT to have because it will make your life easier. You'll turn to someone that is not a hunter gatherer. Someone that has specialized in some other trade. Native Americans did the same thing. Great trading settlements are dotted throughout the country where they exchanged pelts and shells and pottery and tools of all kinds.

Life is about the greatest good for the most people. You may not feel that way but I think it's selfish not to. I want others to thrive. Agriculture was a way to do that. It allowed specialization within communities and still does. A Jack-of-all-trades doesn't do a lot of things well even if he can do a lot of things. Specializing in one thing allows the craftsman to fine turn his skill. A farmer is nothing less than a craftsman of food.

[Alaskan Survivalist]

Life is about the greatest good for the most people.

Since when?

[Rick]

Seriously? You think it's every man for himself? From earliest times we banned together for protection and to share resources. We send aid all over the world today because of tsunamis or earthquakes. I think someone just spent some time helping a brother-in-law? We're all in this together. Our wives make certain of it.

Dogman, since you brought up anthropologists let me quote from a little known study. Hunter gatherers often had to make a choice when one of their clan was injured. They would either have to leave that person behind to a sure death or stay put until the injured party recovered. That latter decision might well mean that the whole clan could starve to death.

Outside a small cave in France there is evidence that a hunter gatherer informed his wife that her mother would have to be left behind because she was injured. He regained consciousness some time later and decided to stay put and become a farmer. I'm going by memory on that so don't quote me.

[Alaskan Survivalist]

You must have seen this promotional add.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1wiRhVzsXFM

[Alaskan Survivalist]

From earliest times we banned together for protection and to share resources. We send aid all over the world today because of tsunamis or earthquakes. I think someone just spent some time helping a brother-in-law? We're all in this together.

This kind of is what I'm getting at. When is it too much. Helping friends and family, a tribal society, a rebublic with strong states rights or full blown totalitarian NWO? Where do you draw the line? When did the good things turn bad or too much?

[Sarge47]

The question is: "will we return to this life;" meaning, if I understand this correctly, will we regress to the way we used to be? What this means to me is no indoor plumbing, shorter lifespans, whole families dying off because of epidemics, and so on. At this point, I'd say that no, we never will. One thing that has increased as we've progressed is knowledge. The folks that lived back then did not have the knowledge of how to do the things or make the things that we have today. Also, there was a lot more violence and anarchy going on then than now. Today it wouldn't be tolerated. :cool2:

[Alaskan Survivalist]

The question is: "will we return to this life;" meaning, if I understand this correctly, will we regress to the way we used to be? What this means to me is no indoor plumbing, shorter lifespans, whole families dying off because of epidemics, and so on. At this point, I'd say that no, we never will. One thing that has increased as we've progressed is knowledge. The folks that lived back then did not have the knowledge of how to do the things or make the things that we have today. Also, there was a lot more violence and anarchy going on then than now. Today it wouldn't be tolerated. :cool2:

I saw a statistic that said 75 percent of the world population live like that now. The economy is raising that percentage each day. An adjustment is coming and my question is at what level do you think it will balance out. I doubt many honestly think things will improve or even maintain the statis quo.

[Rick]

We just went through the adjustment. The level that it balances out is what we have right now. I would guess that most think things will improve or we wouldn't be seeing an increase in home buying, an increase in stock investments or an increase in the purchase of durable goods.

[rwc1969]

Here's the way I see it. The advances made by mankind - agriculture, science, manufacturing - are all good. The fact is, we have abused the process and the product.

We have poisoned much of the earth in the process, and we, mankind as a whole, have abused our capacity to produce and to consume, resulting in the over-population of this planet to a point of no return so far as sustainability or available resources go.

Given circumstances as they are, the worlds population will continue to grow exponentially. It's like we've built this great boat, and we just keep piling people aboard unaware of the fact that it will eventually sink or capsize. Nothing short of a cataclysmic event or a world-wide pandemic or famine will correct this situation. Period.

That really is it in a nutshell. Now all we have to do is wait for nature or our own inner controls to set it right. Maybe next time we won't be so greedy, shortsighted and selfish.

[rwc1969]

.... Also, there was a lot more violence and anarchy going on then than now. Today it wouldn't be tolerated. :cool2:

That's not true IMO. We have more violence and anarchy today, it's just disguised as something else or happening somewhere other than here. Toe-mato tu-motto
.

[Sarge47]

I saw a statistic that said 75 percent of the world population live like that now.....I doubt many honestly think things will improve or even maintain the statis quo.Not where I live. And who says what people are thinking is correct? Where you live there's no where near as many people as around here. :cool2:

[Sarge47]

That's not true IMO. We have more violence and anarchy today, it's just disguised as something else or happening somewhere other than here. Toe-mato tu-motto
.Ahh, but that's my point, in the old days it was everywhere including here! :cool2:

[Alaskan Survivalist]

Not where I live. And who says what people are thinking is correct? Where you live there's no where near as many people as around here. :cool2:

Fox news, most of talk radio.

[rwc1969]

It still is here though more than ever before....because there's more people than ever before.

Per capita it's probably the same as it ever it was.

[Sarge47]

It still is here though more than ever before....because there's more people than ever before.

Per capita it's probably the same as it ever it was.Hmmm, think I'd of noticed that. Let me look out the window....no, no corpses littering the street! I'll check the newspaper....no, nobody "gunned down" lately; all fatalites either from a car accident or natural causes. Nope, not getting any "old west" stuff here. :sneaky2:

[BENESSE]

I've lived in NYC for over 20 yrs. It has never been safer.

[Alaskan Survivalist]

I've lived in NYC for over 20 yrs. It has never been safer.

And it will get even safer under totalitarian rule. Video cameras everywhere, neighbors reporting neighbors, FEMA ready to step in. Very safe indeed. AS a truck driver I was forced to take training under a program called HYWAY WATCH. I was given a few hours of training and an ID card to verify my idendity when I call in to report things I see in my truck to make sure it is legitimate. OBEY, you are being watched. They are getting thier ducks in a row. It is freedom and prosperity that is being outlawed. Stay scared, stay safe.

[BENESSE]

And it will get even safer under totalitarian rule.
Hopefully not in my lifetime, not here.

Video cameras everywhere,
That's how we got the Time Square footage of the terrorist
neighbors reporting neighbors, Someone saw something unusual and alerted the police. Thank God.
FEMA ready to step in. That's what we're paying them to do.
Very safe indeed. Could be so much worse and it has been.

AS a truck driver I was forced to take training under a program called HYWAY WATCH. I was given a few hours of training and an ID card to verify my idendity when I call in to report things I see in my truck to make sure it is legitimate. OBEY, you are being watched. They are getting thier ducks in a row. It is freedom and prosperity that is being outlawed. Stay scared, stay safe. I never let my guard down, no matter where I am.

What's wrong with reporting crime and abuse? What's wrong with the Neighborhood Watch or Amber Alert? We can hang together or we can hang alone. Doesn't mean we check our brains and cojones at the door and relinquish personal responsibility for our own safety.

[Alaskan Survivalist]

What's wrong with reporting crime and abuse? What's wrong with the Neighborhood Watch or Amber Alert? We can hang together or we can hang alone. Doesn't mean we check our brains and cojones at the door and relinquish personal responsibility for our own safety.

Yes, it does. Win or loose I stand a chance against criminals not so with the government. I don't trust them with any power let alone absolute power. I like the old westerns where each man had to have his own code and stand up for it himself.

[Rick]

Ah, but westerns, like most movies, are just make believe. If everyone has their own code....don't we call them......criminals? That's sort of why we have one set of codes called laws. And who is this government you refer to? The post office? The county extension service? The Forest service? The CIA? The government encompasses a lot of folks.

[Blasfemo]

And it will get even safer under totalitarian rule. Video cameras everywhere, neighbors reporting neighbors, FEMA ready to step in. Very safe indeed. AS a truck driver I was forced to take training under a program called HYWAY WATCH. I was given a few hours of training and an ID card to verify my idendity when I call in to report things I see in my truck to make sure it is legitimate. OBEY, you are being watched. They are getting thier ducks in a row. It is freedom and prosperity that is being outlawed. Stay scared, stay safe.

US is much a totalitarian state already and propaganda plays a big part in making all citizens afraid, its all about fear and control similar laws are passing everyday in the EU council since the Lisbon treaty has been signed and will only get worse from here on out i guess...


Of all the threads I posted THIS is the one you choose to resurect? The whole discussion was off topic because they did not get the basic premise...

Ye i got that and i missed it also, i have no idea of a point in human history that would be good and balanced to stay in/live in image of...now that we have a lot of stuff despite the bad use we give it it will be impossible for most of us to forget\leave this life of modern society, most will fight to protect the stupid **** we already have or die trying.



I saw a statistic that said 75 percent of the world population live like that now. The economy is raising that percentage each day. An adjustment is coming and my question is at what level do you think it will balance out. I doubt many honestly think things will improve or even maintain the status quo.

Ye most people live like **** there is no way to deny that we are the lucky bastards, end of the day, most of us never had to steal or kill for a mouthful of food and things like that, and worst, if we did we would not get our hands cut off or something...

[Batch]

Farming created free time. Not for the people who worked the farm. But, for the people that ran the farm. They developed communities and philosophy. Towns, cities, kingdoms and countries.

There are people who have the desire and some say the means to reduce the population. They of course want to pick who gets to live or breed and it probably ain't you.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgia_Guidestones

We are a part of earth and natural as any other animal. We build elaborate lives and put on flashy displays to attract a mate. We try to leverage our environment to ensure we have easy access to as many resources in our area with the least amount of competition. We mate, raise our kids and die.

If left alone every imbalance will eventually be rebalanced. It is part of the process that certain species go extinct. Survival of the fittest. Out with the old and in with the new. That's the way they teach it.

When other populations of animals exceed the optimal population densities there are consequences. Increased competition for resources cause more violent conflict and stress. This decreases the animals ability to fight of disease. Disease is more easily spread through dense populations. Poor resources lead to malnutrition.

Mother Earth allows it to swing out of balance and then back in. That's why earth wobbles when she spins! :tongue_smilie:

In the end it will be the way it will be and if it ain't, I have you a shiny nickel says the end is nigh. :innocent:

[Alaskan Survivalist]

Ah, but westerns, like most movies, are just make believe. If everyone has their own code....don't we call them......criminals?

Lucky for me more than half my code conforms to current regulation.

That's sort of why we have one set of codes called laws. And who is this government you refer to? The post office? The county extension service? The Forest service? The CIA? The government encompasses a lot of folks.

All of them including the local volunteer fire department.


When you are out in the woods do you go back to town to get somebody to handle your problems or do you bury them on the spot?

[Rick]

Hmm. I don't have problems in the woods. I guess if I did I'd handle it then call it in or go back to town to report it. I wouldn't bury it. I might want to camp there some time. How many problems have you buried?:eek:

[Blasfemo]

When you are out in the woods do you go back to town to get somebody to handle your problems or do you bury them on the spot?

flee is an option the law will be useless in the woods no? if my life was in danger i would probably bury it also if i had no other choice... i have been thinking about this many times in the past year, i hope it never comes to that....

[Alaskan Survivalist]

flee is an option the law will be useless in the woods no? if my life was in danger i would probably bury it also if i had no other choice... i have been thinking about this many times in the past year, i hope it never comes to that....

Fleeing is and option I hadn't thought about. I guess they could try. Unless you can't tell I'm being silly but someday we will be making a choice between freedom and obeying the law.

[Blasfemo]

Fleeing is and option I hadn't thought about. I guess they could try.
- AHAHAHAHAH lovely!


Unless you can't tell I'm being silly ....

Nop i cant tell, english is not my language and i do have a hard time understanding sarcasm or funny expressions and quotes m8

[crashdive123]

Your English is a heck of a lot better than my Portuguese.

[Sarge47]

And it will get even safer under totalitarian rule. Video cameras everywhere, neighbors reporting neighbors, FEMA ready to step in. Very safe indeed. AS a truck driver I was forced to take training under a program called HYWAY WATCH. I was given a few hours of training and an ID card to verify my idendity when I call in to report things I see in my truck to make sure it is legitimate. OBEY, you are being watched. They are getting thier ducks in a row. It is freedom and prosperity that is being outlawed. Stay scared, stay safe.Hmmm, maybe you ought to move to Alaska....oh, never mind! :blushing: I hear that Alaska is next on Obama's "hit list," they HATE Sarah Palin! They're even talking about passing a law that makes it a federal crime to not have door on an outhouse, so Sourdough's in trouble....:sneaky2:

[Alaskan Survivalist]

Hmmm, maybe you ought to move to Alaska....oh, never mind! :blushing: I hear that Alaska is next on Obama's "hit list," they HATE Sarah Palin! They're even talking about passing a law that makes it a federal crime to not have door on an outhouse, so Sourdough's in trouble....:sneaky2:

Theres no next to it. This administration is trying to shut down our state. I think he is trying to make Chicago the capital of the world. The rest of us can go to hell.

[DOGMAN]

How many problems have you buried?:eek:

You really don't want to know that about me...more than my share

[rwc1969]

.....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgia_Guidestones

We are a part of earth and natural as any other animal. ...

Ya, the parasitic part.

[Alaskan Survivalist]

I remember a few old timers from my youth that were of the WW I era and the stories they told of how things were better and how they got screwd up. Then my parents generation say we should have never done this or done that and you now hear us saying how more things are going bad to the next genearation and yet we keep pressing forward screwing up more when we should look back to see what worked and what didn't. No time was perfect, It will never be a perfect world but can't we do better than this? I said that wrong. We have done better than this. we should not be looking for new ways to screw up and go back to what worked.

[Pocomoonskyeyes3]

First my apologies to AS for reviving this thread..... However I saw a "Guest" reading it and my curiosity was piqued.

I don't really consider my self a "Doomer", however I do see civilization in serious trouble. As Batch mentioned Mother Nature tends to deal rather harshly with populations gone wild, and ALWAYS returns it to a state of Balance.... or gets rid of it entirely. There is no technology now, nor in the future that will allow us to survive off of nothing. If we continue at our present rate, there will be no arable land, there will be no resources to provide all the material for the Crafts, arts, and other things mentioned that are the benefits of "Civilization". There will also be no need for the improved medical care either as there is only one cure for starvation....food. So while some may say that it is selfish to wish for things long gone, I counter that by saying that it is selfish to care only about ourselves in the here and now. While we may reap the benefits of all the wonders of modern technology, there is only a finite amount of resources to produce those.

Some will say "Oh yeah we have TONS of resources, we'll NEVER run out of oil." I would say that yes while there is enough oil to use for a few more(or maybe many) generations, what percentage have we used and what is left? The same can be said of most materials we use... they are not replenish-able, even through recycling.... they are finite, not infinite. We are only fooling ourselves. Each time Aluminum is recycled a small portion is lost(even if only microscopically),so is paper, plastics, glass,etc.... No the only truly "Replenish-able resources we have are things that can be grown and reproduced.These then die and return things to the earth. It is the cycle of life, the way Nature intended for it to be. Yes we can take chemicals from the ground and improve the soil that way, but that source is also limited.

I agree with AS The Plains Indians and Native American Indians had a true Philosophy of what would befall all of us if we did not pay attention to the wisdom that they had learned.... the hard way... from "Boots"(Mocassins) in the field experience. These words are credited to Chief Seattle, Chief of the Suquamish Indians.....
http://www.barefootsworld.net/seattle.html

This are the words of Chief Seattle translated from what he really said...
http://www.halcyon.com/arborhts/chiefaudio5.mp3


Only when the last tree has died and the last river been poisoned and the last fish been caught will we realise we cannot eat money. ~Cree Indian Proverb



"Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children."



Black Elk Oglala Sioux Holy Man
1863-1950
You have noticed that everything an Indian does is in a circle, and that is because the Power of the World always works in circles, and everything tries to be round..... The Sky is round, and I have heard that the earth is round like a ball, and so are all the stars. The wind, in its greatest power, whirls. Birds make their nest in circles, for theirs is the same religion as ours....
Even the seasons form a great circle in their changing, and always come back again to where they were. The life of a man is a circle from childhood to childhood, and so it is in everything where power moves.

What I fail to understand is how others cannot see that this is our true destiny,and that our true legacy is that todays "improvements" are the Death song of our future grandchildren.

Yes there are those "Smart" in science, but are they smart in life? In the Natural Order of things? Surely someone will say "Oh yes, we have botanists, and biologist who can tell you all of these things" Really? Then ask them what happens when the population becomes too dense, and can no longer support those life forms.

Yes there will be "Balance". However it is up to us to decide whether it is something we choose..... or something that is chosen for us. Just remember that when something is chosen for us (or forced), it is never easy, nor is it "Good" or comfortable.

To think otherwise is Arrogant in the extreme.

I am inclined to agree with AS. That the period of the Native American Indian was the pinnacle of "balance". Sure we may have increased life spans, but none of us live forever. "No one gets out of here alive"... No one. Are we so afraid of our own deaths that we would cheat our children and Grandchildren of their life?

Native American Indians had another saying that some think is a death wish or morbid. "Today is a good Day to Die." It means that my life has been a good one, that if I die today I have no regrets, that I have done all that I can..... for my generation and for those to come. That my death were it to come today, would also help insure that tomorrows generation would have a chance at their life. Am I so selfish that I would cheat my children or their children? I'm not, How about you? You say you would die to protect them, but by continuing on the road we are on, that saying is given the lie....prolonging our lives at the expense of theirs.

Enjoy your life, but don't cling to it. It will only be taken from you at some point anyways, no matter how tightly you grasp.

There are a few things in my signature (The "Indian 10 Commandments") that apply to this the way I see it, they are.....
Treat the Earth and all that dwell therein with respect, Work together for the benefit of all Mankind(including future generations), Do what you know to be right, Be truthful and honest at all times, Take full responsibility for your actions

Just something for all of us to think about....
yYHT-TF4KO4&NR=1

[rwc1969]

Poco, others do see it. They are just too greedy, foolish, powerless, and/ or set in their ways to change. Even our science proves what the aboriginal people and religions of the world always believed without needing proof.

We require proof, but when the proof is evident we deny it. And it is our children who will pay for our sins and foolishness.

[Pocomoonskyeyes3]

kjhg After reading the posts that you do have here in the forums, they all seem to be simple smart aleck comments. Just curious as to why you are here if you don't(apparently) like the things we talk about? If you have a counter point to make then by all means do so.

[BENESSE]

I also seemed to have missed an Introduction.

[crashdive123]

kjhg was a spammer out of Pakistan. I know he took a lot of time to register, write up a nice profile, make six posts that made no sense at all, add a signature with links that you wouldn't want to see..........I guess I should feel bad that after all that work it took three clicks of a mouse to practice my "leave no trace" techniques when it comes to spammers.

[Basic Human]

Native American quotes are unmeasurably wise, it's idiotic that the europeans ignore them. Sooner or later civilization will collapse, because it's parasitic. A town is a parasitic ecosystem, it is unable to make food but it does gather food from other ecosystems and returns nothing but waste.

A native american quote: A man's heart away from nature is hard. We all are destined to live like animals. The whole humanity can't live as animals, because if civilization collapsed some would try to rebuild it and some won't.

The civilization in the tropics most of it, can't be called a civilization, there are many people in poverty, scarcity, unemployment, depending on money. They are tricked by europeans, who make hungry africans into bigger debts, into going school that is not necessary, because when they finish school there's nothing there to continue, so they go to europe or usa and become highely educated and civilized. If they would not be pressure of europeans on them, they could live as tribesmans or animals. The civilization there is just attained and not functional.

Humans act in civilization like that the nature should adapt to humans, instead of the human adapt to nature. This is why civilization is anti natural. The humans should not make ways to decrease pollution, but they should completely not pollute the nature. Because we can't all go back to the animal life but maybe zeitgeist's venus project may be a alternative to balance our nature. But this is still utopian today, probably in future it may work. Only a gargantuan catastrophy that wipes 70% of human population may return humans to animal life. Those who live in cities most of them can't survive and would die. People who live in tribes and villages would live. I don't think civilization will be endless, it may collapse someday. Im sure that in future there won't be robot rule, galaxy conquest, futurizing, this kind of sci-fi. It is more utopian that we will live in future futuristic than that we live in future animalistic. We have tortured plants and animals, polluted air and water, kill 1 specie every day urbanising remote islands, what do you expect futuristic from our poor planet? Nature is a dictatorship, so we can't be trapped in civilization forever, we don't have to be extinct, we will evolve as other animals and return to our past life.

[Rick]

I sure wish you'd tell us your age or at least an age range. I think you miss the point of civilization. Your idealistic views are common from someone that is still young. As you grow older and, I hope, wiser, you'll see things much differently.

[Pocomoonskyeyes3]

Interesting theories you pursue.I assume you are referring to this......
http://www.thevenusproject.com/
Thanks, but no thanks. It sounds like it is giving over total control of human life to a privileged few, from the little I read.

[BENESSE]

Looks like a visual nightmare.

[Rick]

Psst. B. The Catphone is ringing!!!!

[BENESSE]

It usually is, Rick.

[Rick]

Back when man was perfectly in tune with nature he had to be fast......very fast.

http://blog.oregonlive.com/ent_impact_home/2008/03/large_mammoth.JPG

Sometimes taking a nap at the wrong time would get you in hot water, too.

http://media3.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/photo/2008/03/06/PH2008030603959.jpg

Even if you managed to whack a slow turtle there was always someone waiting to take your turtle soup.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_JnJzJDuGEyM/THIDSvoxEAI/AAAAAAAAAA4/a8UQ85yDsAU/s1600/173-0816223955-cavemen.jpg

That's the reason civilization was invented.

http://www.moonbattery.com/geico-caveman.jpg

Now, even the animals are envious

http://thunderations.files.wordpress.com/2010/02/chimp11.jpg

The end.

[RevGeo]

As a new guy here I'll tread lightly (for a while) - This thread reminds me of something Tom Berger wrote in his book 'Little Big Man'.."Bein' a barbarian is just fine, so long as you don't know anything else."
Sometimes I think we need to remember that, no matter what age or era they were living in, people have always thought of their era as 'modern times'.

RevGeo

[JPGreco]

wow, really? Considering modern means pertaining to current, present, or recent time, obviously the inhabitants of ever era refered to their time as modern times. In fact, I would be willing to bet that in 100,000 years from now, the inhabitants of earth would refer to their time as modern times too.

That quote has more meaning in the sense that primitive people didn't know they were primitive. The first people to use stone arrow heads were highly advanced in their time, but nothing compared to other ages. However, that was fine since they did not know any better. That statement actually has a lot of meaning in modern society too, but I won't go into that.

The premise of this thread's problem, as pointed out so elegantly by Rick, is that people perceive this in tune with nature thing as something magical. Well, there are a lot of issues overlooked. The grass is not greener if you want a cliche.

However, I will agree that mankind as a whole needs to find a balance.

[Alaskan Survivalist]

mankind as a whole needs to find a balance.

The premise of the OP was that we have been in balance in the past and asks how far back we will have to go now to find that balance again. Nature will ultimately decide in ways too horrific for many to acknowledge. It seems we lack the forsight to prioritize future need over immediate gradification so the decision will not be made by us.

[Sourdough]

The premise of the OP was that we have been in balance in the past and asks how far back we will have to go now to find that balance again. Nature will ultimately decide in ways too horrific for many to acknowledge. It seems we lack the forsight to prioritize future need over immediate gradification so the decision will not be made by us.

Perfect: I think I just found a new signature line. Tried to send ya some rep, but I have to spread the love.

[JPGreco]

Oh, I know what the OP meant. What I am curious about is the definition of balance. In what era were we in balance with nature?
There are theories of ancient man hunting animals to extinction. That's not much of a balance if you ask me. It seems that the genus homo has long since been out of balance, which would include the last 50k years or so to the last ice age.

[Alaskan Survivalist]

This is the definition of sustainabilty I hoped would be the boundaries of this discussion that we may find our way. Yes it is hopeless.

"The history of sustainability traces human-dominated ecological systems from the earliest civilizations to the present. This history is characterized by the increased regional success of a particular society, followed by crises that were either resolved, producing sustainability, or not, leading to decline."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sustainability

[MidWestMat]

Will we return to this life?

No. Nothing is ever as it was.

A couple of thoughts in response to the posed and reposed question.
Paved roads are I believe the tipping point where civilization begins to go to far. Agriculture, small scale industry, small scale trade, a form of trade currency, formation of confederations of people with similar values and belief systems...these all bear risks of abuse but the point where the scales begin to tip out of balance is advanced transportation. To AK's point of the railroad spelling the begin of the natives decline.

Perks of civilization. Yes, they are great and we would probably all of us to one degree or another miss them if they were gone. But, what do they gain us as people and what are the costs? The simpler the life style, the more primitive, the more 'love' there is. And what is life without love? We speak of greater life expectancys today, but the cost is a lifetime in servitude. Computers, this forum, entertainment, imported foods, all these things bear a terrible price upon humankind.

Ideas. Once an idea is brought upon the human conscious it is extremely difficult to eradicate. The wheel for example, once conceptualized and brought into common use can not be forgotten without the virtual eradication of all written and pictoral medium and the near simultaneous death of everyone old enough to have ever seen or heard of it. Knowledge has advanced so far that even in the most serious and long lasting disaster or collapse of civilization many of these ideas would remain SOMEWHERE and be brought back into use in relatively short order. Obviously many things would not be able to be recreated because of the advanced materials procurement technologys and precision manufacturing processes and if the collapse was long enough would indeed gradually fade from the human consciousness but again the circumstances that would bring this about would have to be dire beyond imagining.

Hope. I am afraid that I can see no hope for mankinds future in the long term. The worldwide valuation of 'things' has brought us into a state of global 'wage slavery' and only an unimagnable and sustained calamity would bring us out of it. But, my hope lies in God because He has promised a better tomorrow though I will likely never live to see it. At least I can have Faith that someday the world and mankind will be 'rebalanced'.

Editors may have to delete out some of that last bit, I may have gotten to close to the line. Do what you must and I wll bear no grudges. ;0

[Alaskan Survivalist]

Transportation is indeed major consideration. Good post.

[crashdive123]

MidWest - While I don't share your bleak outlook on our future, IMO your post was fine. No editing needed.

[Rick]

We are, by our very nature, problem solvers. Who's to say we won't continue to be and find answers that keep us moving forward?


Nature will ultimately decide in ways too horrific for many to acknowledge.

In what ways would that be? What brings you to that conclusion?

[JPGreco]

Ideas. Once an idea is brought upon the human conscious it is extremely difficult to eradicate. The wheel for example, once conceptualized and brought into common use can not be forgotten without the virtual eradication of all written and pictoral medium and the near simultaneous death of everyone old enough to have ever seen or heard of it. Knowledge has advanced so far that even in the most serious and long lasting disaster or collapse of civilization many of these ideas would remain SOMEWHERE and be brought back into use in relatively short order. Obviously many things would not be able to be recreated because of the advanced materials procurement technologys and precision manufacturing processes and if the collapse was long enough would indeed gradually fade from the human consciousness but again the circumstances that would bring this about would have to be dire beyond imagining.


I don't think most tech of today would be lost (other than the very high end stuff and things of little value after shtf). Mankind is incredibly resilient. Yes, many things would be recreated in short order just because even after a catastrophe, the survivors are still intelligent. As for the more complicated items, such as a computer, just think of all the junked computers that would be laying around. Our intuitive and curious nature would bring those things back (at least in the countries where it exists). Even with a complete collapse of civilization, people would group together in little communities, which may preserve all kinds of technology depending on where the settlement is and who survives in the aftermath. Also, people crave what they know. To get things like tv's and dvd players working again would be a HUGE comfort to people.
It would be very interesting to see what would survive in the aftermath. What kind of tech is preserved, what is tossed aside, and what is recreated quickly. This would be even more interesting in areas that have access to some sort of electricity (damns, rivers, solar, wind, etc) where they could harness it.

[Rick]

Folks continue to leave out greed, too. However you made money before you'll continue to do. Greed is the ultimate incentive for maintaining the status quo.

[Alaskan Survivalist]

We are, by our very nature, problem solvers. Who's to say we won't continue to be and find answers that keep us moving forward?



In what ways would that be? What brings you to that conclusion?

Search Oily Casandra on YouTube. She can explain it better than me.

[COWBOYSURVIVAL]

I have taken a few steps back for the better.

[Winter]

Running water, indoor plumbing, global trade, textiles, metallurgy, philosophy, theater, professional sports, and music.


Yes, I'm talking about 360 BC.

Civilization and society are not modern. All it takes is corrupt government and a few barbarians to mess it up for everybody. It will come back, as it did in the 50's, and is declining again with a different group of corrupt governments and barbarians.

[Rick]

Search Oily Casandra on YouTube. She can explain it better than me.p

Okay. that was pretty funny. You started my day off with good chuckle. Nothing like taking advice from a tree hugging stripper. I do understand why you watch her though. (raising eyebrows)

[Tall49er]

I agree absolutely with what you say- we are lucky, in many ways to live in the time that we do, and there is no way back. However, as a European (Englishman) I am filled with a deep shame of what was done in the 'opening up' of the North American continent- by people who were only a generation or so from their European roots. 'Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee' just breaks your heart. I always dip into it when watching old westerns- there is usually a grain or more of real history in them. I am very concerned about the possible way forwards. Why is no-one talking about the population problem? Can't we all see how much better the world would be with a population at about one tenth of what it now is? The alternative is to wait for some uncontrolled events to do it for us.

[Rick]

Oh, we talk about it all the time. We've tried killing a few but then there's that whole manhunt thingie. It cuts down on my forum time. What's your solution on population? (We do talk about it though)

But seriously folks, look at any nation you want and you'll see similar atrocities. For the English they had to endure the Vikings then the Romans. Canada has the Inuit black mark, Australia the Aborigine black mark. If you are different than me then something needs to be done about you. Are you different than me?

[randyt]

Tiptoeing across sacred ground.

read the bible, there are stories there where entire tribes were ordered killed.

[Rick]

You're leaving prints in the sand. You know that, right?

[Tall49er]

Point taken about the poulation problem and frontier 'behaviour'. I cannot see the sense in demanding that people of today apologise for the mistakes of their forefathers- but we need to make each generation aware of the mistakes of the past. As for population- individuals talk about it but what politician or reputable newspaper dares to? I believe that we need to find incentives for small families, and that the time will come when the population issue will leave global warming far behind. It could be rectified slowly, over say two or three centuries, if we could only find an acceptable way. Maybe then we can emulate the Native North Americans and become guardians rather than despoilers.

[randyt]

You're leaving prints in the sand. You know that, right?

I know but the winds of time erases them.

[Rick]

Personally, I think the population problem will correct itself just like it does with every other animal. When times are good populations explode. Then competition for food begins to cull the herd. It's a terrible way to fix it but it will become self regulating at some point.

[Winter]

I believe that we need to find incentives for small families, and that the time will come when the population issue will leave global warming far behind. It could be rectified slowly, over say two or three centuries, if we could only find an acceptable way. Maybe then we can emulate the Native North Americans and become guardians rather than despoilers.

Global warming is a farce, it's the cycles of the earth. The coming ice age will take care of the population problem.

Where does this idea of Native Americans come from? The reason they only took what they needed is because they didn't have consumers to trade/sell to and they had no industry to produce items to trade/sell.

[Alaskan Survivalist]

Global warming is a farce, it's the cycles of the earth. The coming ice age will take care of the population problem.

Where does this idea of Native Americans come from? The reason they only took what they needed is because they didn't have consumers to trade/sell to and they had no industry to produce items to trade/sell.

Localized economies is considered by many as a fundamental component of sustainability.

[randyt]

All this talk of overpopulation reminds me of a drawing I saw in a old mother earth news. It showed a couple dolphins in the sea looking at a huge mushroom cloud. At the bottom of the drawing it was written, "the meek shall inherit the earth". In my opinion it's only the matter of time.

[Rick]

Where does this idea of Native Americans come from? The reason they only took what they needed is because they didn't have consumers to trade/sell to and they had no industry to produce items to trade/sell.

Actually, they did. Where I grew up in Southern Illinois there was a trading settlement about 20 miles away. There is archeological evidence at the site that indigenous people came from the East Coast to trade items or at least the items were carried from the East Coast. The shells of ocean shellfish were found there. I don't remember the specifics but I seem to recall that they also found some items from the Southwest.

[BENESSE]

All this talk of overpopulation reminds me of a drawing I saw in a old mother earth news. It showed a couple dolphins in the sea looking at a huge mushroom cloud. At the bottom of the drawing it was written, "the meek shall inherit the earth". In my opinion it's only the matter of time.

We did an ad awhile ago for Air Jordans with Michael Jordan wearing them.
The headline said: The meek may inherit the earth, but they won't get the ball. There is some truth to that when you think about it. IMO, survival of the fittest on any level esp. human, is not for the meek.

[Bushman]

I don't know anything about balance or Native American rights...but, I wish there were some sort of nationwide Subsistence laws or something. So, that you could get a card and be eligible to harvest game and fish year round and live in a camp in the Nat'l Forest for longer than two weeks at one spot (away from parking lots/cars) so you could try to live a life in "balance" in the antiquated old school way- just to see if its really possible in this modern era

just 'do it'......... Brother !!

at various times over the past 45 years I've 'gone bush' for varying periods of time with the minimum amount of gear............a rifle, some ammo, a knife, firelighting gear, small fishing kit, and a small backpack with a hootchie half and a sleeping bag. Getting more 'extreme' I've gotten down to just the clothes on my back, rifle, ammo and knife. and gone 'huntin'..........

You can live off your body fat for 30 days.......without eating, you DO need water..... but all the rest you can 'learn as you go'.......When you really 'need' it, food 'turns up'.........its a 'gift' from the gods if you like? Deep down in everyone is that old 'ancient knowledge' that you only access in the quiet of the wilderness, by listening and quietly observing the trace of life as it moves around you, and through you ( if you let it in). After a week or three, your whole being will have 'slowed down', you don't walk as fast, you don't think as you once did. There is nothing but 'mother nature as-she-is'............in all her terror and glory, to stimulate your senses.

We've gotten so 'busy' and speedy living this modern life that we have no sense of an 'alternative'. The alternative is; 'just-do-it' !!

while you may well 'need' Permits & licences......... for hunting or camping or foraging, if you're well off the beaten track who in hell is going to 'know' or even care, exactly what it is you're doing?? The aborigines in Australia have certain 'hunting & gathering rights' on their 'traditional lands' that the rest of Australia does NOT have.

I work on the basis that we ALL have the 'right' to "food-warmth & shelter" wherever we are, and extrapolate from there. I've mostly been a 'subsistence hunter' and made meat only when I've needed it. (I did cull deer & rabbits for a living for a while many years back) and to my mind there is a vast difference between the feller who hunts for 'food' and the one who hunts for the 'trophy'. (Not that I have anything against trophy hunting, its just a whole different ball game)

I'm fortunate enough to have a few acres in the country and back onto a State Forest
where there is more than enough 'wild meat', both feathered and furred.

The 'balance' you ask about comes about when you have 'just enough' of whatever it is you seek........food,warmth, shelter...........and there is meat in the freezer and stuff growing in the garden, maybe a few chooks in the pen, the kitchen fire softly burning, and your mind is at rest.

Harry

[Winter]

Good post Harry.

[Sourdough]

Rep point sent Harry, You nailed it 100% perfect.

[Bushman]

Two years back in Feb 2009 we had what is now known as 'Black Saturday' in Victoria, Australia.

This was a disaster waiting to happen. 173 people died in The Great Divide in an inferno that reached an estimated 200,000 kilowatts of heat per lineal metre. Alloy engine blocks melted, alloy wheels melted, the road to Kinglake was littered with hundreds of burnt out vehicles. Houses looked like they had been nuked, with just the roofing iron and concrete stumps remaining. It reminded me of pictures of Hiroshima. Whole families were wiped out in seconds. In most cases there was little remaining to bury. That amount of heat destroys bone like a crematorium, in many case just the teeth or surgical implants were left to identify the dead.

Thousands of houses, businesses and properties were destroyed. Infrastructure vanished in seconds. Telecommunication towers, power-lines, water supplies, hospitals, Police stations, all gone in minutes.

I was up there with a CFA Strike Team from Region 15 the following morning to patrol the fireline which was still burning and threatening more houses and lives. It would be another couple of weeks before the fires finally went out.

What went 'wrong'?

Well 15 years of drought for a starter. The bush was bone dry from decades of low rainfall. In that time hundreds of people had moved into the mountains to buy cheap land and a 'rural lifestyle'. Councils got greedy and opened up house blocks on 40 degree slopes in areas known to have had devastating fires in recent history.

Too most of the people moving there were/are 'city slickers' with little or no knowledge of what is involved in living 'in the Bush'.

Greenies dominated the local Shires and Councils bringing in 'regulations' severely limiting 'land clearing' and demanding that newcomers plant only 'native species'.........i.e. 'eucalypts'. Now eucys are nice trees and make good timber, but due to the volatile oils in the leaves they burn like a blast furnace once things get going. If the fire 'crowns' (as this one did) you're in deep doodoo..............and you sure as hell don't want to be within a hundred miles if it does !

So what did we learn from this? Most people up there 'survived' even though their houses and properties were wiped out. A small few with a large amount of common sense and forethought, had built themselves 'fire bunkers' and shelters. One feller, knowing the fire was headed right at him from 20 miles away climbed into his dozer and pushed back a firebreak right around his property some 200 yards deep, right down to mineral earth. He then pushed through his neighbours fence and did the same there. Those were the only two houses in the street to survive! The Council is taking him to Court for 'clearing land without a permit' !!

Many people up around Kinglake and Marysville have left forever, the trauma was too much. Others have remained and are or have rebuilt. New building regulations have come in to make houses 'safer'.........but a Major Fire is like a Tsunami, not too much you can do about a Force of Nature of that extent!

As with the recent Tsunami in Japan, many died, but many times more 'survived'.

So what does this tell us as 'survivalists'? My take on this is; in any so-called 'major disaster' the vast majority of people survive, even at the 'epicenter' of events. For sure property and assets get destroyed and many people are physically maimed and mentally scarred for life. But most people 're-build' their lives in one form or another, somewhere.

Two, the ones who came out of this Inferno the 'best' were the ones that were 'prepared for the worst'...............One fella we took the trucks down to had about 60 acres on a steep North facing slope (bloody dangerous in Australia !), but he had cleared most of it and had cut filled a house block into the side of the hill, with a tall stone retaining wall on the downhill side.. His house was built on a concrete slab out of stone and brick. He had numerous fire dams on the property and fire pumps working spray systems onto his buildings. That saturday night when the fire came over 60 people from the surrounding area came and 'camped' in his house............because they knew it was the only 'safe place' in the area. He showed us a 'summons' from the council to appear in Court for refusing to plant 'native species' on his property. The fact that over 50 houses in the same valley as he, had been immolated gave lie to the Councils position.

My 'take' on this event is that; NEVER trust ANYONE........particularly Government bodies with YOUR own health & safety. I work on the basis that; "this is MY property and MY life...............I will decide what happens here.............you sonsa*****es want to make the rules??? YOU can pay my Mortgage !!

and finally "Hope for the best, but Prepare for the Worst".

if you follow this tenet, you have a better than even chance of coming out alive.

Harry

[BENESSE]

That's a good story H, and I agree with you when it comes to doing what you personally think is right for you and yours. Ultimately, we alone bear the responsibility for ourselves and we suffer the consequences accordingly.

[Rick]

Harry - One of the things that used to be pretty common on the prairie here in the states were underground bunkers. They were little more than an earth covered room that you could take shelter in during a wild fire. A few timbers and some planks to hold back the dirt then all covered with earth except for a small opening. Hugely effective against fires because it protected you from the heat and the actual fire. Since wild fires travel so quickly it was usually over in just a few moments but that fire bunker saved a lot of lives. With all of our modern conveniences today and almost no prairie land left the fire bunker has become a thing of the past but it was very useful once upon a time. Perhaps something like that would be helpful where you are. Good post by the way.

[Winter]

Harry, did you ever do an introduction? Hahaha

You haven't, I looked.

[Bushman]

Harry, did you ever do an introduction? Hahaha

You haven't, I looked.

awright Winter ! Just now !!

ya Happy ?? :)

Harry

I done one !!!

[Winter]

In English?

[paul m]

I think as a species we have taken a lot more than we NEED.Nature provides enough.Usually.Man has asked too much of his environment.

I think that the resource crisis we face-and we do face one-means we will go back.Back ,I suspect to a lower standard of living.I suspect initially a standard of living like the 60's.

[Rick]

I think our exploitation has been a learning process like anything else. Everyday we invent new materials to move us forward. Nanotubes that can take the place of steel, hybrid carbon fiber for batteries, aluminum foam, concrete cloth, magnetic sponges, self healing concrete, and on and on. It's a pretty amazing time that we live in.

If you have a commodity in front of you then you use it. Once that commodity isn't there any more then you go look for it and finally figure out some way around it. We'll never go backwards. No one would accept it. Why on earth would I want to return to a world of free love, drugs and rock and roll. Hmmmm. Let me think about this a bit more.

[hunter63]

........................ Why on earth would I want to return to a world of free love, drugs and rock and roll. Hmmmm. Let me think about this a bit more.

Speaking for you self, I hope.
OMG, You have turned into "the estabishment"........LOL

[Rick]

That's why I decided I had to think about it. The free love..........I'm not THAT old.

[BENESSE]

That's why I decided I had to think about it. The free love..........I'm not THAT old.

Are you saying it's not free now?
That Mrs. Rick...one smart lady! :flowers:

[crashdive123]

Now that right there is funny. I don't care who you are.

[Winter]

It's not free love , Rick, if you have to buy a pill to do it.

[Rick]

Are you saying it's not free now?

Uh, no. I get the going rate for husbands. New shoes, new dresses, new handbags, new shoes, new belts, new shoes, new jewelry, new shoes......It would be cheaper on the street.

Winter - At my age I have to buy a pill to do just about everything. I need a pill to remind me what the rest of the pills are for. I even take a pill for my memory but I only take half of one. Some things aren't worth remembering.

[BENESSE]

Uh, no. I get the going rate for husbands. New shoes, new dresses, new handbags, new shoes, new belts, new shoes, new jewelry, new shoes......It would be cheaper on the street.


Yeah it would be...but then they wouldn't launder your hong or put up with all those lost canoes.

[crashdive123]

He washes the h....................oh never mind.

[DOGMAN]

just 'do it'......... Brother !!

at various times over the past 45 years I've 'gone bush' for varying periods of time with the minimum amount of gear............a rifle, some ammo, a knife, firelighting gear, small fishing kit, and a small backpack with a hootchie half and a sleeping bag. Getting more 'extreme' I've gotten down to just the clothes on my back, rifle, ammo and knife. and gone 'huntin'..........

You can live off your body fat for 30 days.......without eating, you DO need water..... but all the rest you can 'learn as you go'.......When you really 'need' it, food 'turns up'.........its a 'gift' from the gods if you like? Deep down in everyone is that old 'ancient knowledge' that you only access in the quiet of the wilderness, by listening and quietly observing the trace of life as it moves around you, and through you ( if you let it in). After a week or three, your whole being will have 'slowed down', you don't walk as fast, you don't think as you once did. There is nothing but 'mother nature as-she-is'............in all her terror and glory, to stimulate your senses.

We've gotten so 'busy' and speedy living this modern life that we have no sense of an 'alternative'. The alternative is; 'just-do-it' !!

while you may well 'need' Permits & licences......... for hunting or camping or foraging, if you're well off the beaten track who in hell is going to 'know' or even care, exactly what it is you're doing?? The aborigines in Australia have certain 'hunting & gathering rights' on their 'traditional lands' that the rest of Australia does NOT have.

I work on the basis that we ALL have the 'right' to "food-warmth & shelter" wherever we are, and extrapolate from there. I've mostly been a 'subsistence hunter' and made meat only when I've needed it. (I did cull deer & rabbits for a living for a while many years back) and to my mind there is a vast difference between the feller who hunts for 'food' and the one who hunts for the 'trophy'. (Not that I have anything against trophy hunting, its just a whole different ball game)

I'm fortunate enough to have a few acres in the country and back onto a State Forest
where there is more than enough 'wild meat', both feathered and furred.

The 'balance' you ask about comes about when you have 'just enough' of whatever it is you seek........food,warmth, shelter...........and there is meat in the freezer and stuff growing in the garden, maybe a few chooks in the pen, the kitchen fire softly burning, and your mind is at rest.

Harry

thanks for the "just do it" prompt....however, I have been doing it for about 20 years...i've built my own cabin, built my own business that is sustainable and allows me non-stop outdoors time, live on 22 acres surrounded by wildness, and feed my family with what I kill. However, in order to do that legally in Montana I have had to work hard in the cash-economy to finance the property etc...In this area you can't just live off the land unless you own it....you cant build dwellings unless they are up to code, etc...

[wildlearner]

I'm not sure what you mean by "weaker." Today we live far longer, healthier, and more comfortable lives than any other people in history. We do not suffer from diseases that devastated entire nations in the past. We enjoy a level of infant mortality lower than was ever thought possible. Millions of people with "disabilities" (including such simple things as bad eyesight) who in the past would have been relegated to a life of begging are able to enjoy productive and contributory lives. We enjoy opportunities to learn, to experience, to travel, etc. that would have been unfathomable to our ancestors. Indeed, even the ability to "commune with" and appreciate nature which so many of us find appealing and sustaining is largely a function of our not having to battle against nature on a daily basis for our survival.

The popular perception of Native/Aboriginal practices and their "balance" with nature is highly romanticized and inaccurate. "Native" peoples tended to suffer much from exposure, disease, bad hygiene, malnourishment, and lack of medical care, etc. and they almost always died before reaching 40 yrs. old.

Any of you at or above say, 50 yrs old should consider that a true return to an ancient, "traditional," non-industrialized, "at-one-with-nature" lifestyle would mean that you would almost assuredly already be dead.

Just sayin...
yes but how are we doing that? we are using antibiotics which our bodies are quickly rejecting sooner or later we will have a epidemic that will wipe out a lot of people.

[badhat]

yes but how are we doing that? we are using antibiotics which our bodies are quickly rejecting sooner or later we will have a epidemic that will wipe out a lot of people.

A bit of perspective...
My grand parents were married in the late 1800's had 11 children and were only able to have 3 that lived to adulthood while 8 died from disease in childhood..
bet they would have wished for some those anti-biotics.