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canid
02-12-2010, 08:20 PM
this is a sgian dubh i'm working on.

http://i602.photobucket.com/albums/tt106/canid/knives/img_0171.jpg

http://i602.photobucket.com/albums/tt106/canid/knives/img_0172.jpg

http://i602.photobucket.com/albums/tt106/canid/knives/img_0174.jpg

i have no idea the composition of the steel, so the heat treat will be an adventure. it's in the early stages. i'd like to put a taper one it, like a flat bevel, but i don't know if i have the patience for it atm.

i have some antler in mind for the handle, when the time comes [thank you Hunter]

i'll be working on the other knives soon [from crash's l-6 stock], and i should have the use of my friend's dremel today.

welderguy
02-12-2010, 08:24 PM
I love that file work your doing, thats gonna be a nice piece of work there.
any on line tutorials on file work that you know of?

crashdive123
02-12-2010, 08:44 PM
Looking good Canid.

Rick
02-12-2010, 08:46 PM
Very nice piece of metal. That one's gonna look good.

Camp10
02-12-2010, 08:52 PM
Looks good! What is the length?

panch0
02-12-2010, 09:04 PM
Lookin good candid. I have always wanted to make a hidden tang knife. The one I was working on had the tang part break on me. It was to thin of a tang and where the pin hole was was its failure point. That tang looks like its more than thick enough. Keep it up.

canid
02-13-2010, 09:36 AM
what i've been doing lately are half length push tangs. they are side notched and then set in epoxy, and have all proven to be much more durable than i would have expected, as long as the resin completely fills the cavity.

i will be doing a series with peened over stick tangs soon. i expect to have the blanks cut out within the next several hours [as soon as it's a decent hour to run power tools.

i have seen a good pictorial on scalloping/filework once upon a time, but i can't for the life of me remember where. i would have throught paleo planet, but a quick search didn't turn anything up.

i use the square edge of a file to start a 'v' groove across the spine at a 45 deg. angle, and continue until it just reaches across to the far side, and then go over it again with a small dia. round file, so that it is mostly rounded out, and only a small suggestion of the 'v' is still showing. i do these at a regular interval along one side, and then do the same for the other side in between.

i'm not very good at it, and i have some more fancy stuff i've seen others do which i plan to try when the chance arises.

the blade length is about 4 1/3 - 4 1/2". i like knives in the 4-6" range for a daily carry as a matter of personal preference.

gryffynklm
02-13-2010, 10:19 AM
Nice work as usual.

Ole WV Coot
02-13-2010, 11:24 AM
Bruce Evans has some good stuff on file work, especially vine & arrowhead. Google Bruce Evans-custom knives and take a gander. He's easily understood and great tutorials. IM less than HO.

canid
02-13-2010, 11:29 AM
i think that the blade will clean up pretty well after the heat treat, when i take the 800-2000 paper to it :D

the pitting is minimal, evenly distributed and so should lend nice character to the blade.

welderguy
02-13-2010, 11:32 AM
Bruce Evans has some good stuff on file work, especially vine & arrowhead. Google Bruce Evans-custom knives and take a gander. He's easily understood and great tutorials. IM less than HO.

Thanks WV good info , maybe in the near future Ill give that fancy stuff a try.

COWBOYSURVIVAL
02-13-2010, 11:34 AM
Looks Good Canid! Maybe a white vinegar or mustard patina?

canid
02-13-2010, 11:40 AM
might be an idea.

surely it will work better than my tannic acid stain/etch attempt. i've gotta work on that one.

rebel
02-13-2010, 02:03 PM
Looks great! Nice file work too.

pocomoonskyeyes
02-13-2010, 02:45 PM
Here's a tutorial for "Vine" filework:
http://www.frycustomknives.com/?page_id=578
He also has some other Tutorials there as well.
Where I "followed" to that link is from here where there are more Tutorials.-
http://knifedogs.com/forumdisplay.php?f=80

canid
02-13-2010, 04:12 PM
well i'm gonna' get it now.

my friend loaned me his precious dremel 400 xpr, a tool he takes quite seriously, and for which he owns every attachment.

i had been warned, was fully aware that it overheats quickly, and cools back down slowly, but i burned out the windings. it don't think it shorted [it didn't even start smoking untill i stopped to let it cool], and it may be salvageable, but i'm not looking forward to breaking the news.

this comes immediately after he helped me greatly in equipping my workshop yesterday. i hate breaking other people's things. it makes me feel like i'm 5-10 years old again.


[update]
the dremel lives. no short

hunter63
02-13-2010, 07:01 PM
Nice, can't wait to see the finial product.
Dremel thermally protected, maybe?

canid
02-13-2010, 08:26 PM
i suppose it has a high temp insulation on the windings [the thing runs really hot even before it overheats], and it has a blower [which is moronically located such as to vent the hot air right into your hand while in use].

btw; i have an update. this is the dry fitment of the handle [blade still needs to be heat treated and finished]:

http://i602.photobucket.com/albums/tt106/canid/knives/img_0175.jpg
http://i602.photobucket.com/albums/tt106/canid/knives/img_0179.jpg

the handle is antler and pronghorn, courtesy of hunter. i would have liked to fuller the blade. i'm still trying to decide what else i want to do to the handle.

Camp10
02-13-2010, 08:43 PM
Good to hear the dremel made it!! Nice looking knife!

hunter63
02-13-2010, 08:53 PM
Alright,..... I'm liking it even more now.

crashdive123
02-13-2010, 08:54 PM
Looking good.

canid
02-13-2010, 09:54 PM
i'm starting a second blade now:

http://i602.photobucket.com/albums/tt106/canid/knives/img_0171-1.jpg

http://i602.photobucket.com/albums/tt106/canid/knives/img_0170.jpg

i got a little too aggressive cleaning this piece up with the grinder, so most of the pitting is gone. i should have everything up to the heat treat ready tomorrow, including the second handle ready for dry-fitting.

crashdive123
02-13-2010, 09:55 PM
Looks like they'll make a nice set.

canid
02-13-2010, 09:58 PM
i seriously hope this isn't low carbon stuff. the stock was rescued from a junked pair of carden shears.

canid
02-14-2010, 03:20 PM
i did the filework on the second blade earlier this moning, cut out the second handle and bolster and have the bolsters gluing up to the handles as we speak.

i plan to shape the handles a bit, and i'm leaning towards carving/engraving in a thistle on both. i'm trying to decide on a couple other things.

1. i wonder if i should add a horn pommel/butt as well.

2. i'm wondering what wood i will use for the sheaths, and if i should cover them with burnished leather.

3. i'm wondering whether i should round off, or bevel the spine edge.

4. i'm wondering if i should try to grind in a fuller.

crashdive123
02-14-2010, 04:14 PM
I guess we'll all have to wonder along with you until you figure it out. Looking forward to seeing what you decide.

canid
02-14-2010, 04:18 PM
i'm open to suggestion.

some of you have better aesthetic sense than i do.

essentially i want them to finish out somewhat on the simplistic side, but more on the sense of the elegant than the 'i just banged this together with a grinder and some glue'.

crashdive123
02-14-2010, 04:21 PM
If that dremel is working again, routing out a pattern in the wood/antler and inlaying it with copper wire might look kind of cool. It's been a thought rattling around in my head that I want to try at some point.

canid
02-14-2010, 04:30 PM
that's an idea. i'm afraid to use the dremel any more right now, but it's certainly not the only way to do it.

an idea i've had for a while is using silver solder as an inlay. just carve or rout out the pattern to a size that will accept the solder, with the top still protruding a bit, and run the iron across it slowly to melt it.

canid
02-14-2010, 05:11 PM
update:

http://i602.photobucket.com/albums/tt106/canid/knives/img_0174-1.jpg

http://i602.photobucket.com/albums/tt106/canid/knives/img_0175-1.jpg

the bolsters are glued on, and the handle blanks are rough shaped. everything is properly dry fitted. i plan to glue pads onto the tops of the bolsters, probably from some black molehair i have.

i've got more draw-filing to do, filing in another scallop on the small one, and then i'll get around to the heat treatment.

Camp10
02-14-2010, 06:09 PM
Match set...cool! Shears should be good steel, I've played with them before and they made a good knife. I cant wait to see the finished products!

canid
02-15-2010, 05:42 PM
well, the good news is that i finished the heat treat about an hour ago:

http://i602.photobucket.com/albums/tt106/canid/knives/img_0183.jpg

the bad news is that about 5 min later, i broke the larger blade while stupidly flexing it to correct a slight warpage i should have taken care of beforehand.

http://i602.photobucket.com/albums/tt106/canid/img_0184.jpg

rebel
02-15-2010, 05:46 PM
Dang, it broke! That sure was looking great too.

canid
02-15-2010, 05:49 PM
well, i've got some extra steel for a replacement i suppose.

i was planning on having it finished today.

crashdive123
02-15-2010, 05:59 PM
Oh man - too bad. On the bright side - you now have some extra steel for some points on your arrows.

COWBOYSURVIVAL
02-15-2010, 06:52 PM
What was the quenchant? or rather what was the complete heat treat process?

canid
02-15-2010, 07:02 PM
well, i've been busy the last hour and a half or so:

i safraficed an old knife i never could decide what to do with. i started by overlaying the broken blade on it, and glamping it down. using a bi-metal reciprocating saw blade as a scribe, i traced in an outline.

http://i602.photobucket.com/albums/tt106/canid/knives/img_0188.jpg

after an hour on the wheel, taking it slow to preserve the already fine temper the blade has, i proceeded to work it down. it's almost a blank now.

http://i602.photobucket.com/albums/tt106/canid/knives/img_0189.jpg

canid
02-15-2010, 07:03 PM
water. i'm using almost exclusively water quenching at the moment.

the warpage was minimal, but the piece already had a bit of bow in it to begin with and i should have corrected it before the heat treat.

COWBOYSURVIVAL
02-15-2010, 07:07 PM
water. i'm using almost exclusively water quenching at the moment.

the warpage was minimal, but the piece already had a bit of bow in it to begin with and i should have corrected it before the heat treat.

I kind of thought so. I have been scared to use water. Have you ever tried motor oil or even cooking oil?

rebel
02-15-2010, 07:11 PM
I was reading in this one blacksmith book that salt water and oil had the same results.

Camp10
02-15-2010, 07:18 PM
I was reading in this one blacksmith book that salt water and oil had the same results.

Put that book down and slowly back away from it!!:) If you quench a knife blade with water, use quick dips and pull the blade out fully each time. Do this until it is cool to the touch and then fix all the warpage after you have tempered it. If you are forging larger tools than water is probably fine. Also, make sure the water is at least 130 degrees.

I use oil or animal fat for my quenchant and have had very little trouble with getting the steel hard or having trouble with breaking.

Sorry to see a broken blade!! Looks like the replacement is on its way though!

canid
02-15-2010, 07:19 PM
yeah, water quenches are very rapid, and harsh on the steel, becomming more dangerous in terms of cracking and warpage as the length to width ration increases.

COWBOYSURVIVAL
02-15-2010, 07:21 PM
Put that book down and slowly back away from it!!:) If you quench a knife blade with water, use quick dips and pull the blade out fully each time. Do this until it is cool to the touch and then fix all the warpage after you have tempered it. If you are forging larger tools than water is probably fine. Also, make sure the water is at least 130 degrees.

I use oil or animal fat for my quenchant and have had very little trouble with getting the steel hard or having trouble with breaking.

Sorry to see a broken blade!! Looks like the replacement is on its way though!

Good advice Camp! Yeah I hate to see it too. Happens though, way to suck it up and get on the replacement! You definately deserve a pat on the back for that!

canid
02-16-2010, 03:04 PM
for the replacement blade i'm going to have to blend that flat grind into the ricasso area further, and figure out a way to play the hole off like it's supposed to be there.

it's late enough now to run the sander and grinder, so i suppose i'll be getting busy about now.

Rick
02-16-2010, 03:13 PM
Canid, can't you put an edge across the break, put a handle on it and use it for a) a scraper or b) a flint steel? What's done is done but you could still salvage it for a usable tool. Two sharp edges (or three) would let you make fuzz sticks, scrapings for tinder and a striker. And you'd own the only one like it.

hunter63
02-16-2010, 03:26 PM
"Stuff happens" but you never know till you try.
Hang in there, bud, nice grips...........

canid
02-16-2010, 04:10 PM
yeah, i have thought about salvaging both pieces for something useful. i've also thought about keeping it in my collection as a glorious testament to failure.

haven't made up my mind yet.

canid
02-16-2010, 04:11 PM
i really should invest in a gallon of cheap vegetable oil. one more thing for the 'when i'm not broke' list.

canid
02-16-2010, 05:53 PM
here's the replacement i'm working up. i'm trying to pull off a flat grind with a distal taper on my 4x36" belt sander, to remove some imperfections in the grind this steel had in it's previous knife incarnation.

http://i602.photobucket.com/albums/tt106/canid/knives/img_0198.jpg

http://i602.photobucket.com/albums/tt106/canid/knives/img_0197.jpg

canid
02-16-2010, 06:07 PM
i've got the right side grind pretty much done, and the left still needs a bit of work.

canid
02-16-2010, 06:20 PM
adding pronghorn butts to the handles now.

http://i602.photobucket.com/albums/tt106/canid/knives/img_0199.jpg

Camp10
02-16-2010, 06:21 PM
adding pronghorn butts to the handles now.

That paints a picture!

canid
02-16-2010, 06:37 PM
i added a photo, to assuage any confusion.

crashdive123
02-16-2010, 06:39 PM
Great progress.

canid
02-16-2010, 08:58 PM
now with butt and sheath:

http://i602.photobucket.com/albums/tt106/canid/knives/img_0200.jpg

this is my first wood 2 piece sheath.

crashdive123
02-16-2010, 09:13 PM
Looks awesome.

COWBOYSURVIVAL
02-16-2010, 09:16 PM
Looks great! Awesome recovery! Maybe go by a fast food restaurant and ask for some spent oil?

canid
02-16-2010, 09:22 PM
that's a good idea, but the bio-deisel guys usually pick the junk food joints clean. it's worth keeping an eye/ear out.

here's a picture of the breakage showing the grain:
http://i602.photobucket.com/albums/tt106/canid/knives/img_0201.jpg

crashdive123
02-16-2010, 09:42 PM
Used motor oil from a garage/oil change place?

COWBOYSURVIVAL
02-16-2010, 09:47 PM
that's a good idea, but the bio-deisel guys usually pick the junk food joints clean. it's worth keeping an eye/ear out.

here's a picture of the breakage showing the grain:
http://i602.photobucket.com/albums/tt106/canid/knives/img_0201.jpg

Nice pic! Now that is martensite in a crystalline structure fer sure! LOL! Hope your smiling! I know it sucks. If ya wanna do another water quench put water in a shallow pan about 1/2" deep and only quench the cutting edge. It'll leave ya backbone.....Jus roll the dge in the 1/2" of water..

canid
02-16-2010, 10:11 PM
i'm going to be experimenting pretty soon with with tsuchioki type refractory tempering processes, but i'd like to get some experience with warm oil quenching as well.

Camp10
02-16-2010, 10:18 PM
The knife looks real good Canid!!

canid
02-18-2010, 10:38 PM
two hour, room temperature bath in distilled vinegar gave a nice, splotchy patina:

http://i602.photobucket.com/albums/tt106/canid/patina2-noflash.jpg
http://i602.photobucket.com/albums/tt106/canid/patina1-noflash.jpg

in the second picture, you can see a nice, interesting star-burst pattern. it's strange, but i like it.

i've heard of phantom patterns showing up after etching recycled steels before.

crashdive123
02-18-2010, 10:49 PM
Looks pretty cool. I think I'm going to try a mustard patina on my next one.

Rick
02-18-2010, 10:53 PM
I see some very straight lines in the metal. Is that the result of the type of metal it was, the heat treat, the quench or all of the above?

canid
02-18-2010, 11:03 PM
the very fine, straight, lengthwise lines are the residual tiny grooves from the finish grinding.

canid
02-18-2010, 11:45 PM
ok, a gentle shave test on my forearm resulted in my successfully shaving off a paper thin piece of my forearm.

this thing is scary sharp.

your_comforting_company
02-19-2010, 09:21 AM
me and really sharp knives don't get along, mostly because the doctor's office want $100 bucks to get in the door.. then there's the stitches, etc... and the prescriptions... Lord Have Mercy!!

hunter63
02-19-2010, 12:29 PM
two hour, room temperature bath in distilled vinegar gave a nice, splotchy patina:
in the second picture, you can see a nice, interesting star-burst pattern. it's strange, but i like it.

i've heard of phantom patterns showing up after etching recycled steels before.

Very nice, I'm a big fan of old and old looking gear.

Old Rendezvous trick, use your new shiny belt knife to cut onions, leaves the splotchy patina, so you don't look like a pilgrim.

Won't work on stainless,obviously, but then again you wouldn't have a stainless knife at Rendezvous, any way.

canid
02-19-2010, 05:18 PM
yep, potatoes, green hardwoods [e.g. debarking], acidic fruit, etc. also work well.

standingbear
02-20-2010, 10:07 AM
Looking good keep us updated.:tongue_smilie: