I might have a good Idea.....yea not likely....EMP related

[Sourdough]

So would it help if I put the generators inside the 20' Steel Shipping Container.....? It has new rubber door seals.....??? Will the Steel Connex protect the generators.....?

[Rick]

On a guess, yes. Any metal cage around an electrical item will offer protection. But...does the generator have any circuit cards in it? Any type of solid state electronics? I don't know what kind of generator you have. If the answer is no, then there isn't anything to protect. It would take a pretty massive EMP event to damage an electrical item that does not have solid state electronics and chances are pretty good you'd be toast if it was that bad.

[crashdive123]

On a guess, yes. Any metal cage around an electrical item will offer protection. But...does the generator have any circuit cards in it? Any type of solid state electronics? I don't know what kind of generator you have. If the answer is no, then there isn't anything to protect. It would take a pretty massive EMP event to damage an electrical item that does not have solid state electronics and chances are pretty good you'd be toast if it was that bad.

+1.............

[Pal334]

As an observation, would it be prudent to ground the container, or is it considered grounded being on the ground?

[Sourdough]

As an observation, would it be prudent to ground the container, or is it considered grounded being on the ground?

Because I generally set the containers on "Dunnage" and because the containers have wooden floors, yes, grounding would be prudent.

[Sourdough]

On a guess, yes. Any metal cage around an electrical item will offer protection. But...does the generator have any circuit cards in it? Any type of solid state electronics? I don't know what kind of generator you have. If the answer is no, then there isn't anything to protect. It would take a pretty massive EMP event to damage an electrical item that does not have solid state electronics and chances are pretty good you'd be toast if it was that bad.



I know that they have a capacitor, and if they set very long with out running the capacitor needs to be re-excited. Rick, would be good of your to research the solid state issue. One is a largish Diesel but the others are typical stand-by gas powered 5,500 to 10,000 watt.

[Winnie]

Aren't those shipping containers basically a metal box? If so, wouldn't it be a Faraday cage or am I being a dolly again?

[tipacanoe]

I believe that you will need a EMI gasket around the door and any other openings. The cable if it extends outside the container, will need a double shield, or be in EMP (electro mechanical protection which is grounded on each end) If you forgo any protective measures such as grounding the container, then I don't think you would want to do any of them, because it only takes one way in to ruin the whole set up.

[Sourdough]

Aren't those shipping containers basically a metal box? If so, wouldn't it be a Faraday cage or am I being a dolly again?


No. I think you are 100% correct, on the Faraday Cage.

[Rick]

Tippicanoe - I'm not certain I understand. Even if some type of EMP event were to occur (solar flare for example), generators typically don't have solid state electronics so they aren't likely to be damaged. Placing the generator inside a shipping container would be the equivalent of a faraday cage as Winnie pointed out.

The damage occurs because transmission lines act as a pipeline or conduit sending geomagnetically induced currents directly into transformers and other grid components. It isn't the size of the current but the intense fluctuations that causes the break down. Since Sourdough is not on the grid, the likelihood that he would experience any damage is pretty slim since there is no conductor spanning miles for current to be induced in. I would think he's pretty well protected even if he doesn't do anything preventative.

Metatech has been studying EMP threats since 1991. Here is a report they put together.

http://www.wunderground.com/hurricane/2009/metatech2009.pdf

"Metatech Corp. estimates that more than 300 large extra-high voltage (EHV) transformers would be exposed to levels of GIC [that's Geomagnetically Induced Currents] sufficiently high to place these units at risk of failure or permanent damage requiring replacement." - Source listed below.

While the threat to the grid is most real, the threat to unattached generators or generators running off grid is next to nil. In fact, even Europe is considered to be at substantially less risk than the U.S., Canada or China because they lack the extremely long cross country transmission lines that are the lightening rods, if you will, for induced current into the grid. The three countries listed above have a lot of them.

Here is a really good article, from which I took the quote above, that discusses EMP intentionally caused by another country and by solar flares. It is a two part article so look for the link to Part II at the end of this link.

http://www.thespacereview.com/article/1549/1

[Pal334]

"It has new rubber door seals.....???"

In the context of Sourdoughs question, does the condition of the door seals (other than the obvious weather issue) play any part in the EMP question?

By the way, Sourdough,thanks for asking the question, I am learning from it

[Rick]

I honestly don't think so. If he were on the grid then there would be a lot of questions that need to be researched. But he doesn't have that long line of wiring for current to be induced into should an EMP event occur.

In my own case, I have a generator in the garage not connected to the house. I don't expect any damage to occur to the gen set just sitting in the garage, even though I am on the grid. While I could certainly lose a lot of equipment inside the house, TV, computer, fridge, etc. I don't think the gen would be impacted.

[Rick]

While we're on the subject, using the term "grid" might well be misleading. Telephone, Cable TV and, to a certain extend, underground pipelines would all be at risk. Telephone and Cable TV both utilize cables spanning miles and are quite susceptible to having GCI induced into them. Anytime a phone line passes parallel to an overhead transmission line the telephone cable was susceptible to GCI from the transmission line. Often enough to knock your socks off.

If you think of pipelines such as the Alaskan Pipeline, it's nothing more than a huge antenna that current can be induced into, which would then impact pumps and generators. Or least have the potential to do so.

[tipacanoe]

Rick,
I would agree, if the US Navy wasn't doing just what I said, and I'm pretty sure they aren't on any grid. There are a whole bunch of people who want to protect the ships from just such an event.

[Rick]

The difference is in the use of solid state electronics. About the only thing left on the ship that would work is the fog horn.:innocent:

[Pal334]

Then it would seem (if I am understanding this), storing a generator (without solid state electronics) in a grounded CONNEX would be more than adequate for avoiding almost any EMP event damage? And the CONNEX idea has merits for a wide variety of storage needs. I know there are no absolutes, but do believe that being a bit on the cautious side never hurts.

[crashdive123]

With Navy ships there are literally thousands of hull penetrations. Many of which would act as large conductors and conduits. In the case of storage of some low tech equipment in a big metal box that is grounded - that really should be sufficient.

[Sourdough]

Two Points: Rick, the cabin is on the power grid via extension cord from the temporary service drop.

But most important: It is my understanding that solar flares can come in waves, for days, and weeks, and maybe even years. I also understand that if equipment is undamaged, in the first Solar wave, but the power grid goes down for months, or years. If at that point I plugged in the cabin to the standby generator and an other solar flare hit while the generator is running that it could damage the generator, hence my redundancy of generators. My fear is -36* Fahrenheit, and the power is out for months.

I confess too being fearful of economic collapse, but feel I could live with it. With out a lot of planning life in Alaska would be hell & most likely fatal. especially for the city people.

[Aurelius95]

If an EMP hits, does it mess with the wiring? For instance, the copper running through your house to light up all your rooms? Or the outlets, would they be usable? Can you hook up a non-affected generator to a house/cabin that has been zapped?

I read an interesting book recently, I think it was called "One Second After". Scary stuff.
http://www.onesecondafter.com/

Good thread, Sourdough.

[Sourdough]

If an EMP hits, does it mess with the wiring? .


My understanding is that it can fry those large transformers, and there is nearly none available to replace the fried ones. And in theory with no electric transmission the factory of which I understand there is only two, could be out of business. I could be wrong but my understanding is the possibility exists for large areas, like states or even countries, and in theory the whole world, to be with out power for years.

[crashdive123]

If an EMP hits, does it mess with the wiring? For instance, the copper running through your house to light up all your rooms? Or the outlets, would they be usable? Can you hook up a non-affected generator to a house/cabin that has been zapped?

I read an interesting book recently, I think it was called "One Second After". Scary stuff.
http://www.onesecondafter.com/

Good thread, Sourdough.

The wiring and transmission lines would not be affected. Removing a "fried" component and replacing it makes things as they were before the pulse.

Oh yeah - One Second After is a must read.

[Rick]

EMPs from solar flares can certainly last for days. We've seen that occur in 1989 when Quebec went dark and in 1921. I'm not aware of any occurrence that has taken place over weeks or years.

I think you'd be hard pressed to be without power for months. Even the Quebec event in '89 only last about 9 hours.

Here is a write-up from wiki on the Quebec outage:

"The variations in the earth's magnetic field (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earth%27s_magnetic_field) also tripped circuit breakers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circuit_breaker) on Hydro-Québec (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydro-Qu%C3%A9bec)'s power grid (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydro-Qu%C3%A9bec%27s_electricity_transmission_system). The utility's very long transmission lines and the fact that most of Quebec sits on a large rock shield (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_shield) prevented current flowing through the earth, finding a less resistant path along the 735 kV power lines[5] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/March_1989_geomagnetic_storm#cite_note-HQ_solarstorm-4). The James Bay (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Bay_Project) network went offline in less than 90 seconds, giving Quebec (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quebec) its second massive blackout (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_outage) in 11 months.[6] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/March_1989_geomagnetic_storm#cite_note-5) The power failure lasted 9 hours and forced the company to implement various mitigation strategies, including raising the trip level, installing series compensation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flexible_AC_transmission_system) on ultra high voltage (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_voltage) lines and upgrading various monitoring and operational procedures. Other utilities (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_utility) in North America, the UK, Northern Europe and elsewhere implemented programs to reduce the risks associated with geomagnetically induced currents (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geomagnetically_induced_currents).[5] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/March_1989_geomagnetic_storm#cite_note-HQ_solarstorm-4)"


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/March_1989_geomagnetic_storm

What you see in an event like this is not a single massive problem but a series of small events that multiply into a large event. Remember, too, that Quebec was not the only geographic location that experienced the storm in 1989 but the only one that experienced an outage of any consequence.

The very thing that makes the North American grid a liability, its size, is also it's advantage. Let's assume the breakers at Quebec were completely destroyed. Spare equipment is available to put the broken pieces back together. And if they don't have it in house then they look to the manufacturer or to other companies for replacements. And let's assume they were highly specialized breakers that no one else in the world had and it would take months to make new ones. They simply reroute power along the grid until they have everyone back in service. Power is a commodity no different than grain or oil. It's sold and traded day in and day out and shipped from point A to point B on an hourly basis depending on need and the type produced (wind or solar, which is more expensive because it's green, vs coal fire). I have a nephew that does that very thing. He's an electrical engineer for a company that moves power around on the grid as needed.

Let's assume Anchorage would hit dead on with an EMP of massive size that severely damaged the electrical capability but left folks uninjured. AML&P would begin making repairs as soon as possible using spare parts they have in their yard. As their assessment expanded and they saw the impact was larger than they could cover they would contact their equipment manufacturers for replacement parts and/or put a call out to places like Seattle Power and Light, Pacific Power and others to supply them with the equipment they need.

Here's how we did it on the phone side. We had a standing contract with our suppliers. Let's take HP as an example. We would pay HP a premium to hot ship us equipment. That means if we had a significant failure and did not have in house replacements we would call HP and they would ship the next available item to us. They generally have lot's of equipment getting ready to be shipped but they would pull one, maybe the one they intended to ship to you, and send it to us. That's what we paid the premium for. That's part of the overall disaster recovery and business continuity plans that every major corporation and every major utility has in place. No utility wants to be down for days let alone any longer. The loss of revenue, the bad publicity, the resulting regulatory storm and the loss to shareholders would be unacceptable. So they have contingency plans in place to deal with it.

[Rick]

Aurelis - to you question the answer is yes, it could. However, it would be much more likely that the house wiring would be in tact and just the appliances would be damaged. That's the very scenario I'm counting on.

I've seen hundreds of houses hit by lighting. Some came in on the phone line and some came in through power or cable TV while still others were directly hit. In only a few cases were wiring or breaker panels affected. Almost always, it was the loss of TVs, radios, etc. leaving the core service unaffected. I've also seen aerial service drops completely devoid of metal with only the insulation left and pin holes about every two inches where the metal blow out of the insulation and covered the ground like BBs. Lightening, like an EMP event, is pretty unpredictable. We can guess what it's going to do and plan for it but in the end there are a lot of variables that will affect it. Since I can't plan for every conceivable contingency, I plan for what I think will be the most likely scenario and that is as I described above.

[Rick]

Sourdough - I guess with all that's been said (all that I've said) you have to plan according to what you believe can occur and what you're comfortable with. That's really about all any of us can do regardless of the subject matter. I suggest you study this the best you can but look for groups or organizations you trust and don't take to heart every write up whether its for or against, including mine. You have to sleep at night and the only way you can do that is to know you've done your best when your head hits the pillow.

[Sourdough]

Rick, thanks for all that you bring to this conversation......:):):) Note: it does not make up for your flawed economic theories.....:innocent::innocent::innocent:

[Rick]

I know, I know. I'm still a work in progress........

[Sourdough]

I know, I know. I'm still a work in progress........

Seriously Thank You......We love you, warts and all.

[crashdive123]

Here's a bit more information that may help you decide.


History
The fact that an electromagnetic pulse is produced by a nuclear explosion was known since the earliest days of nuclear weapons testing, but the magnitude of the EMP and the significance of its effects were not realized for some time.[1]

During the first United States nuclear test in 1945, electronic equipment was shielded due to Enrico Fermi's expectation of an electromagnetic pulse from the detonation. The official technical history for that first nuclear test states, "All signal lines were completely shielded, in many cases doubly shielded. In spite of this many records were lost because of spurious pickup at the time of the explosion that paralyzed the recording equipment."[2] During British nuclear testing in 1952–1953 there were instrumentation failures that were attributed to "radioflash," which was then the British term for EMP.[3][4]

The high altitude nuclear tests of 1962, as described below, increased awareness of EMP beyond the original small population of nuclear weapons scientists and engineers. The larger scientific community became aware of the significance of the EMP problem after a series of three articles were published about nuclear electromagnetic pulse in 1981 by William J. Broad in the weekly publication Science.[1][5][6]

[edit] Starfish Prime
Main article: Starfish Prime
In July 1962, a 1.44 megaton (6.0 PJ) United States nuclear test in space, 400 kilometres (250 mi) above the mid-Pacific Ocean, called the Starfish Prime test, demonstrated to nuclear scientists that the magnitude and effects of a high altitude nuclear explosion were much larger than had been previously calculated. Starfish Prime also made those effects known to the public by causing electrical damage in Hawaii, about 1,445 kilometres (898 mi) away from the detonation point, knocking out about 300 streetlights, setting off numerous burglar alarms and damaging a telephone company microwave link.[7]

The EMP damage of the Starfish Prime test was quickly repaired because of the ruggedness (compared to today) of the electrical and electronic infrastructure of Hawaii in 1962. Realization of the potential impacts of EMP became more apparent to some scientists and engineers during the 1970s as more sensitive solid-state electronics began to come into widespread use.

The relatively small magnitude of the Starfish Prime EMP in Hawaii (about 5600 volts/metre) and the relatively small amount of damage done (for example, only 1 to 3 percent of streetlights extinguished)[8] led some scientists to believe, in the early days of EMP research, that the problem might not be as significant as was later realized. Newer calculations[9] showed that if the Starfish Prime warhead had been detonated over the northern continental United States, the magnitude of the EMP would have been much larger (22 to 30 kilovolts/metre) because of the greater strength of the Earth's magnetic field over the United States, as well as the different orientation of the Earth's magnetic field at high latitudes. These new calculations, combined with the accelerating reliance on EMP-sensitive microelectronics, heightened awareness that the EMP threat could be a very significant problem.

[edit] Soviet Test 184
Main article: The K Project
In 1962, the Soviet Union also performed a series of three EMP-producing nuclear tests in space over Kazakhstan, which were the last in the series called "The K Project".[10] Although these weapons were much smaller (300 kilotons or 1.3 PJ) than the Starfish Prime test, since those tests were done over a populated large land mass (and also at a location where the Earth's magnetic field was greater), the damage caused by the resulting EMP was reportedly much greater than in the Starfish Prime nuclear test. The geomagnetic storm-like E3 pulse (from the test designated as "Test 184") even induced an electrical current surge in a long underground power line that caused a fire in the power plant in the city of Karaganda. After the collapse of the Soviet Union, the level of this damage was communicated informally to scientists in the United States.[11] Formal documentation of some of the EMP damage in Kazakhstan exists[12][13] but is still sparse in the open scientific literature.

[edit] Non-nuclear history
The concept of the explosively pumped flux compression generator for generating a non-nuclear electromagnetic pulse was conceived as early as 1951 by Andrei Sakharov in the Soviet Union,[14] but nations have usually kept their most recent work on non-nuclear EMP highly classified until the technology was old enough for similar ideas to be conceived by physicists in other nations.

According to some reports, the U.S. Navy used experimental non-nuclear E-bombs during the 1991 Gulf War. These bombs utilized warheads that converted the energy of conventional explosives into a pulse of radio energy.[15] CBS News also reported that the U.S. dropped an E-bomb on Iraqi TV during the 2003 invasion of Iraq, but this has not been confirmed.[16]

[edit] Characteristics of nuclear EMP
The case of a nuclear electromagnetic pulse differs from other kinds of electromagnetic pulse (EMP) in being a complex electromagnetic multi-pulse. The complex multi-pulse is usually described in terms of three components, and these three components have been defined as such by the international standards commission called the International Electrotechnical Commission (IEC).[17]

The three components of nuclear EMP, as defined by the IEC, are called E1, E2 and E3.

The E1 pulse is the very fast component of nuclear EMP. The E1 component has an intense electric field that can quickly induce very high voltages in electrical conductors. E1 is the component that can destroy computers and communications equipment and is too fast for ordinary lightning protectors.

The E1 component is produced when gamma radiation from the nuclear detonation knocks electrons out of the atoms in the upper atmosphere. The electrons travel in a generally downward direction at relativistic speeds (more than 90 percent of the speed of light). This essentially produces a large pulse of electrical current vertically in the upper atmosphere over the entire affected area. This electrical current is acted upon by the Earth's magnetic field to produce a very large, but very brief, electromagnetic pulse over the affected area.[18]

The E2 component of the pulse has many similarities to the electromagnetic pulses produced by lightning. Because of the similarities to lightning-caused pulses and the widespread use of lightning protection technology, the E2 pulse is generally considered to be the easiest to protect against.

The E3 component of the pulse is a very slow pulse, lasting tens to hundreds of seconds, that is caused by the nuclear detonation heaving the Earth's magnetic field out of the way, followed by the restoration of the magnetic field to its natural place. The E3 component has similarities to a geomagnetic storm caused by a very severe solar flare.[19][20] Like a geomagnetic storm, E3 can produce geomagnetically induced currents in long electrical conductors, which can then damage components such as power line transformers.




Source:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromagnetic_pulse

[Ted]

Da**it! You guys made me read a lot and think even more! Thanks, I really should do more of both more often! Very interesting Q's and A's! Learned alot! (That Rick and Crash are smart little wipper snappers aint they!)

[SARKY]

Yes the shipping container would be for all intents a Faraday Cage and grounding it would be reccomended. Most items that are electric NOT electronic will not be affected by EMP unless they are plugged in to the grid. The grid (power and telephone lines) act as a lightning rod for the EMP and will channel the pulse right into your stuff if it's plugged in. The pulse will arc right through the on off switch, so it doesn't matter whether it's turned off or not. Most of todays electronics have a sleep mode as opposed to an on or off mode. So they are toast in an EMP blast.

[aflineman]

I believe that you will need a EMI gasket around the door and any other openings. The cable if it extends outside the container, will need a double shield, or be in EMP (electro mechanical protection which is grounded on each end) If you forgo any protective measures such as grounding the container, then I don't think you would want to do any of them, because it only takes one way in to ruin the whole set up.
Pretty much this is spot on. The theory of the Faraday cage for EMP is a sealed (and well grounded) metal box. The induced currents and voltages you are dealing with are brief, but immense. Similar to lightning, but in some ways very different. Frequency (Hz) of the event plays a large part in how intense it is.The theory is to seal the box "electron tight", and provide no conceivable path for current flow from outside to inside. The "EMI" gasket is metal mesh. Copper seems to be the most durable to me, but I have seen other metals.
You must have a continuous connection of metal to be completely effective. The grounding must be substantial enough (enough wire size and grounding points) to "drain" the charge effectively, but not so large as to be effected by the ground wave pulse and become charged itself.

[Winnie]

Yes the shipping container would be for all intents a Faraday Cage and grounding it would be reccomended. Most items that are electric NOT electronic will not be affected by EMP unless they are plugged in to the grid. The grid (power and telephone lines) act as a lightning rod for the EMP and will channel the pulse right into your stuff if it's plugged in. The pulse will arc right through the on off switch, so it doesn't matter whether it's turned off or not. Most of todays electronics have a sleep mode as opposed to an on or off mode. So they are toast in an EMP blast.

How would items be affected if turned off at the socket? Apart from the fridge/freezer all my electrical items are switched off at the socket or unplugged until I need to use them. What I know about electrictronics and electricity can be written on a postage stamp with room for a signature and I'm having a hard time getting my head round this stuff, but feel it's more I need to know. Also, houses over here are fitted with copper lightening rods to prevent damage should a strike occur, but again my knowledge is very sketchy.

[crashdive123]

Winnie - keep in mind that it is a very large and intense, albeit brief pulse of electromagnetic activity. If a conductor (think wire) is in the path of that pulse it will then transmit the energy to whatever is connected to it. All things in the path of that pulse will be "hit" with that energy. Even an item that is not plugged in may be affected. Things that are indoors are not immune from being hit. The power cord or frame itself of an unplugged computer is susceptible to absorbing that energy. A car with modern electronics is affected in a similar way. Think about a large magnet. Covering it with cardboard does not prevent things from being affected through the material. With a Faraday cage, all of that energy is re-routed so as to not affect the contents of the cage.

[Rick]

This might also be a good place to talk about lightening for a moment since the effects and method of protection are similar.

It doesn't take much voltage at all to have a negative impact on solid state electronics. Some items, like CMOS circuits or PMOS transistors are susceptible to static electricity. That's why you see workers using grounding devices on themselves (typically a wrist strap) and standing on non-conducting mats during their manufacturer.

So let's talk about voltages. That little blue spark coming off the end of your finger and prompting a bad word is in the 500v to 1000v range. Static electricity can easily increase to 25,000 or more volts giving you that audible SNAP when you touch something and evoking several bad words. That charge is more than enough to damage solid state devices but most equipment is designed to prevent damage from static electricity by carrying the charge around the components instead of through them and by isolating them through the use of plastic housings.

An EMP event is expected to be in the 10-50 kilovolt per meter (kVm) range while lightening can be in the 300 kV range. Both events are extremely short lived and are measured in milliseconds.

Extremely high voltage transmission lines (> 35000 volts) can arc an opening of several feet. Here is a video of a switch being opened on a 34 mile long, 230 kV line that is unloaded or "dead". The resulting arc you'll see is caused by the line de-energizing or bleeding off its residual charge for lack of a better explanation. Remember, the voltage is turned off on this transmission line.

http://205.243.100.155/frames/mpg/345kV_SWITCH.MPG

That was 230,000 volts across several feet. Now, consider lightening at 300,000 volts across a few centimeter gap of a circuit breaker or switch. Hopefully, that puts this in perspective.

Where wiring makes a 90 degree bend, lightening will often keep going straight and leap into anything that will conduct it such as aluminum siding, gutters, etc.

I know that's a lot of information and perhaps more than you wanted but I hope it puts in perspective why you should NOT be talking on the phone during a lightening storm, why cable boxes can be welded to anything metal they are sitting on and why things like air conditioners and refrigerators suddenly smell funny. Folks underestimate the power and unpredictability of lightening thinking the breaker box and grounding will protect them. It's simply not true. No amount of protection can adequately protect you other than to avoid contact with connected items during a storm.

An EMP event will act in much the same way with much the same results.

[Winnie]

Thanks for clearing that up guys, I'm going to have to read your posts a few times to understand. I fully get lightening taking the path of least resistance in it's urge to "ground" itself. So what you are saying is a lightening rod is not reliable? Sorry to keep butting in Sourdough.
Perhaps I should start an Understanding Lightening thread:blushing:

[Sourdough]

Rick, Could a strong EMP, over NYC sterilize, or remove computer data, like bank records, from CD or servers, or hard drives, even if unplugged.

Also, was it pre 1973 cars, trucks, motorcycles that are solid state free.....?

[Rick]

Sourdough - The answer to your first question is yes it certainly could and probably would. However, data is backed up on some periodic basis and stored in a data vault (secure and controlled environment designed to withstand most events). So the data should be able to be restored as soon as the hardware is functioning. The only data lost would be from the last backup to the point of the event, which could be pretty substantial in some cases. We did a full data backup every week-end with incremental backups nightly. So everything was back up on Saturday night/Sunday morning and every night we backed up every file that had changed since the last backup. Those tapes were then sent for storage and in our case that was an underground facility.

EDIT: I can tell you that our servers serve the New York Stock Exchange and there are multiple redundancies as well as secured backups. 911 did take them out, however. They were removed, cleaned, reprogrammed and reinstalled and nothing missed a beat.

Question number two. I've read an awful lot of pros and cons on the vehicle subject and there seems to be several schools of thought. I truly have no clue who is right and I doubt anyone does.

Idea 1: Vehicles pre 1980 would not be affected by an EMP event because they don't contain solid state electronics.

Idea 2: There is no evidence that pre-1980 vehicles would NOT be affected. Components such as alternators/generators, batteries, even vehicle wiring could be impacted.

Idea 3: Any vehicle is fine. The metal body acts as a Faraday cage and will protect the vehicle's components.

I guess its all anecdotal at best. My personal belief is that a surplus military vehicle like your duecy would be ideal. The government has always known about EMP and protection should be built into the vehicle. Short of that, I'm not going to worry about it. Vehicles with either work or they won't and I'm not sure where I'm going if something happens. Without communications (the event will render all communication useless for a while) I have no guarantee that any place is better or worse than where I'm at.

[Rick]

Winnie - I guess you have to define "reliable". Are they better than not having them? You bet! Lightening rods do what they are intended to do and that's provide a path to ground around the outside of the house instead of through it. And if you'll notice, the ground lines all make gentle curves when going around some object like the edge of the roof (or they should anyway). That's to try and keep the lightening contained. Are they fool proof? Not in the least. I've been out to more than one house that had them and still took a hit. Lightening, and I would assume an EMP event, will do screwy, unpredictable things because you're talking about enormously high voltages that has the capability to jump pretty large gaps. I'd much rather have lightening rods than not have them, however.

[aflineman]

Winnie - I guess you have to define "reliable". Are they better than not having them? You bet! Lightening rods do what they are intended to do and that's provide a path to ground around the outside of the house instead of through it. And if you'll notice, the ground lines all make gentle curves when going around some object like the edge of the roof (or they should anyway). That's to try and keep the lightening contained. Are they fool proof? Not in the least. I've been out to more than one house that had them and still took a hit. Lightening, and I would assume an EMP event, will do screwy, unpredictable things because you're talking about enormously high voltages that has the capability to jump pretty large gaps. I'd much rather have lightening rods than not have them, however.

The biggest thing I have seen with many lightning protection systems is lack of maintenance, inspection, and testing. Connections must be tight and corrosion free. Downconductrs must be secure and routed right. Items adjacent to downconductors should be bonded to help prevent side flash. Air terminals should be clean and in good shape. Even with all of these, lightning will still do unexpected things. We can only attempt to mitigate the effects. After all (like I used to say in when I taught it) it is only the THEORY of lightning protection. As such it changes; we learn something new with each strike.

[Winnie]

Looks like Winnie jnr could be up a ladder at the weekend then.

[Rick]

Great post, AFLineman!! Very true. I've gone out to homes where some lazy SOB had simply shoved the ground wire in the ground or the ground wire had corroded off the ground rod or had been damaged by some other means. It sure won't work if it isn't connected.

Here in the U.S. we have something called the National Electrical Installation Standards (NEIS) often referred to as the National Electrical Code. It's part of the National Fire Protection Association (NFPA) codes. While it isn't a law, it is often used as the basis for state and federal laws and is a unified source of requirements.

It covers an enormous amount of ground but in a nutshell it says that utilities should have a common ground. We used to ground telephone to our own ground rod or to a water pipe but no more. Doing so can establish different potentials between the utilities and can create a situation that actually aids a lightening strike. Today you'll see cable TV and telephone run to the power entrance or as close as physically possible in an effort to use a common ground and eliminate any differences in potential.

If you have some extra time and are really interested here's the NEIS web site.

http://www.neca-neis.org/standards/

[TucsonMax]

I thought those of you on this thread might like to see this:

The Commission to Assess the Threat to the US from an EMP Attack completed a 200+ page report (PDF), includes: Executive Report and a Critical National Infrastructures Report describing findings and recommendations. The participants are impressive and their findings, quite a read: http://www.empcommission.org/index.php

I'm not sure which scared me more, this Report or One Second After.

[Rick]

I don't know, TM. It's just one more threat in a basketful of stuff that keeps trying to wipe out mankind. Now that we finally have the ability to do it ourselves, who knows, maybe we'll get lucky and be successful. Of course, who would know?

That is a great site and a good read. If you are interested in or concerned about EMP then take some time to read through it.

Thanks, TM!!

[TucsonMax]

EMPs have other, even positive uses.. this is interesting:

Electromagnetic Pulse Cannon Has The Attention Of The USAF (w/ Video)
The EMP cannon will only work on cars that have on board computers. The disabling power relies on the car’s microprocessors and various other electronics that controls the engine.
http://www.physorg.com/news183296601.html

[Rick]

I actually saw one of those in use a few years ago. It was a device that sat under the front of the police car. If they got in a pursuit they would fire a rocket engine on the gizmo, it would shoot out from under the squad car and run underneath the bad guys car. The cops would throw a switch and it would fry the electronics in the car. It worked. The problem was the bad guys couldn't control the car without the engine running so the idea was apparently abandoned.