Rxs in Quantity - How many and How?

[TucsonMax]

In Rick's fantastic post:in this thread http://www.wilderness-survival.net/forums/showthread.php?t=10333
He discussed his medical back pack, which include this:



Medications
Vicodin 5-500 tablets
Cipro 500 mg – Adults
Amoxicillin 500 mg – Children
Flexeril 5mg



Rick and everyone else: Let's talk Rxs for a minute. Everything else on your fantastic list is easily available if you have cash.... but the 4 above are available only by an Rx. So, let's just assume you know a MD (like Ken) who will ethically help you.

Next question... what quantity?
Because, if you want Cipro in case of an Anthrax outbreak, the recommended dosage is 500mg 2X/day for 60 days for each person effected/or in your family. That means if TSHTF, my household would need 480 pills. You can't get an Rx for that many, period.

Amoxicillin (I've got kids too) dosage is 250mg @ 3/day for 10 days (or 1/2 for 500mg) that's 60 pills for two kids and that's for only one episode. What if it lasts longer or a kid gets sick again?

Not mentioned above, but on my list is: Tamiflu (for Influenza or Swine Flu outbreak) you need 75mg @2/day for 60 days - that's 120 pills per person or, 480(!) pills... how do you get that?

And we haven't discussed Vicodin/Flexeril for minor pain, let alone heavy duty narcotics like Demerol for serious SHTF. Again, there are MDs who will RX emergency 10 or 20 pills, but that won't get you very far.

Now, I'm less than 1hr from MEX border and am planning my next trip to buy OTC several items that you need an Rx in the US. (I know the risks and have an idea what I'm doing... if you want to discuss this topic, start a different thread.) But we're still talking hundreds of pills... You can't legally take that many across the border and you can't (even in MEX) legally buy large quantities of Rx narcotics, or even Tamiflu for example. Cipro In MEX is OTC at about $1.50 per pill so that's $720(!) for a family of 4 (and you would have to buy it in 10 different locations and then get it across the border.) And I don't know about you, but I'm not smart enough (or is it dumb enough) to try to sneak that many across a US border.

So, with all of that said: those of you storing Rxs: Do you have 10-20 pills, or the hundreds required? And if you have hundreds, how do you get the quantity?

[Rick]

Well, let's put this in perspective. I'm not concerned about a bio event. Not that it can't happen or you shouldn't be concerned about it but that isn't my first priority. What I am concerned about is being out in the woods and breaking an arm or leg or be two days into the boundary waters and come down with an infection.

So I went to my PCP and stated my case. I don't want to find out on Tuesday that I've developed an ear infection (or whatever) and have to cut my trip short just to be prescribed an antibiotic. And I sure don't want to break a leg and lay there in pain any longer than I have to. I asked for something to take the edge off and still allow me to be functional so I can call 911, radio my position, signal my rescuers or whatever I can and need to do.

He wouldn't prescribe Morphine or Demerol. He has to be able to justify the narc scripts he writes and, as I said somewhere else, being knocked out or counting pretty clouds doesn't help my situation. I want to be coherent enough to do what I need to do I just don't want to deal with raw pain if I don't have to.

Fortunately, I have an established relationship with him. He knows I don't abuse medications. Second, he's an outdoor guy, too so he understands where I'm coming from. He had no problem writing the scripts for me. He knows we often take the grandkids with us so that's the reason for the Amoxicillin.

The flexeril is also a prescription but it's one that I always have so it gets added to the kit because it's just too good for sprains, especially back, not to have it along.

I have 12 of the Cipro which should get me through something like 10 days. I should be off the trail by then or, if the infection is getting worse then I'll definitely be off the trail.

I have 30 of the Vicodin. You can take a couple ever 4 hours so that works out to 2.5 days. The idea is rescuers should (hopefully) have located and retrieved me within that time.

I think there were 12 of the Amoxi's as well.

Since my insurance covers a portion of my scripts, cost wasn't a big factor for me.

[Winnie]

Max, the dosage and duration for Tamiflu you have is wrong, here's a link to recommended doses at the Roche website.

http://www.tamiflu.com/taking/default.aspx

[TucsonMax]

Well, let's put this in perspective.

Thanks, perspective is good, obviously not what I was thinking, but a perfect explanation for your thinking.

[TucsonMax]

Max, the dosage and duration for Tamiflu you have is wrong, here's a link to recommended doses at the Roche website.

http://www.tamiflu.com/taking/default.aspx

Winnie: You're right as far as standard use of the drug. If there's a WW pandemic, I read the recommended duration is 6 weeks:
http://www.roche.com/med_mbfstamiflu.pdf (see p1, 3rd bullet.)
(Which is scary because no way is there this much available.)

[Winnie]

Got it Max! the 6 week dosage is a PEP. The liklihood of anyone (other than health workers) getting this dosage is very remote. I think WHO would advise traditional methods of containment first and using, in this instance Tamilfu to reduce symptoms, rather than prevent them. The trouble with the widespread use of these medications unneccesarily is the virus/ microbe may develop immunity, then we really would be stuffed!

[TucsonMax]

Winnie: I agree with w/ everything. But I'm still wondering how to get enough of all of it.

[Winnie]

Just thank your lucky stars you CAN get it! I can't even get any extra of my regular medication!
There's pros and cons to having a pharmacy available I suppose. As I'm not a doctor, I'm not sure it's such a good thing. But if you really want to have them, I see no reason why you shouldn't go ahead. We need one of our EMS folks to give you some advice.

[BENESSE]

Winnie: I agree with w/ everything. But I'm still wondering how to get enough of all of it.

TMax, you could make a few trips across the border (less than an hr. away isn't that bad) getting a legal quantity each time.

Please note that Tamiflu has a relatively short shelf life.

[TucsonMax]

Benesse: I wish it was that simple... In MEX you can buy many drugs OTC that require an Rx in the US. However, you can't legally bring them across the border without a valid Rx from a US MD. Also, you can not bring-in Rxs for other people (even a spouse) even if you have a valid US MD Rx. Also, you can't bring in large/excessive quantities. And I don't want to even consider crossing the border w/o declaring whatever I've bought.. that's a federal crime. So one needs to look into the other options and possibilities to get them into the US. And, I'm no smuggler.

[Rick]

TM - I don't know how you'd do it legally. You could try talking to your doctor and perhaps get a script every three months or something like that. And just build up your supply. I have no idea how long they remain effective but I'm sure your doc can advise you. Probably a year but ask them for the real date. Some scripts will go bad in a relatively short time while others will last a very long time.

[linkmissing]

Antibiotics and some meds can be obtained from vet supply places like Revival Animal health or Drs. Foster and Smith. You can get inj. vials of PenG for $7, tetracycline, etc. not the narcs tho. You can get skin staples and stapler for around $8. IV, dental, surg equip also. If you know someone working in a dental office you might be able to get lidocaine/novacaine or a prescrip. from them.

[Rick]

You really wouldn't take vet drugs would you? Scares me and I'm fearless!!!!

[crashdive123]

You really wouldn't take vet drugs would you? Scares me and I'm fearless!!!!

Isn't that where the expression - A little hair of the dog that bit you came from?:innocent:

[BENESSE]

You really wouldn't take vet drugs would you? Scares me and I'm fearless!!!!
They've been tested on humans, so it's OK.

[crashdive123]

Now that right there is funny. I don't care who you are.

[linkmissing]

When I worked as vet tech at an emerg. animal hosp. the vets and techs took the antis all the time; keflex, amoxi, amp, cyclines, cefa, and the ointments too. Most came from the same co. producing human meds. Equip. too.

[Rick]

Maybe I've been ingrained by their media campaign but we've had a couple of docs on here that said don't do it. That's all I know.

[TucsonMax]

linkmissing: Thanks... a very interesting idea.
BENESSE: I agree with you.

I wouldn't do take pet meds on a daily basis, but if TSHTF, I wouldn't hesitate.

[Ole WV Coot]

I have a great PCP who goes hunting, fishing and ATVing with me. I am fortunate in that what I take I keep enough to wean myself off slowly. Don't think I will have to worry about cholesterol or blood pressure that ain't that bad to begin with. As for pain, took one potent pill and was out of it for a couple of days. As of now I don't take anything I have to have in that situation so I don't stock up on anything. I'm a lucky ole fossil I guess.

[lucznik]

Just a little aside for any of you that are old enough to be on Medicare (or have a family member who is) or who are on Medicaid or any other Gov't run insurance program.

Prescription Stockpiling (wherein a member obtains and stores large quantities of drugs) is a violation of the Federal False Claims Act, even if you have a valid Rx for the drugs, and is potentially punishable by:

1. between $5000 and $11000 per claim plus up to 3x the total damages per claim;
2. possible exclusion from continued participation in Gov't run insurance programs;
3. possible criminal prosecution.

Even if you don't participate in such programs, you need to be careful what you are doing so as not to become a target of DEA interest. Having a few personal meds on hand is probably a reasonable and justifiable prospect. However, you must always remember that prescriptions can be legally given only to people with an actual, "medically necessary" purpose, by someone with an appropriate and valid license to prescribe, and with the intent that the individual will be using those medications according to their instructions. Having large quantities of prescription meds on hand is not an approved/legal use of these medications and, especially if/when you are dealing with narcotics, can result in prosecution for distribution or even just the intent to distribute. The sheer quantity of Rx meds that is being discussed as desirable for having on hand to dole out "in an emergency" would almost certainly serve as prima facie evidence of an intent to distribute them illegally. Actually giving someone who is not the individual identified on the original Rx some of your Rx meds would put you in an even worse position.

Get busted for drug crimes and not only will you lose your hard-earned meds and your freedom but also any of your survival equipment that can be defined as a "weapon" as well as your right to ever replace any of that equipment even after you do "pay your debt to society" and get out of prison.

And even if you accept the premise that you would be doing this only for use in a true and valid emergency situation, the dispensing of Rx strength meds involves issues that are beyond the ability of the untrained to manage. Proper prescribing includes an understanding of proper dosing as related to age, weight, gender, race, etc. It also involves the necessity to understand what other meds a person might be on (or might supposed to be on) and the possible drug-drug interactions that could occur. So too, you have to know the person's medical history including any allergies or interactions to meds that they may have and how to counteract those interactions should they occur. Just because your doctor gave you something and said it was O.K. for you, does not mean that the same drug would be O.K. for anyone else - even someone suffering the (apparently) same symptoms as you.This is just not a domain for the lay person.

If you are worried about providing medical treatment in an emergency, you are probably wiser to stock up on available OTC meds (being careful to follow their directions and dosing instructions as well [do you realize how easy it is to overdose on something as basic and simple as acetaminophen (Tylenol)?] and then to spend time learning about the medicinal properties of the plants in your area.